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So what are your thoughts on pick up artists, or so called "dating gurus?" You know, the guys who tell other guys how to get women? Do you think those guys are actually helpful? Or are they just a bunch of liars who can't actually get women themselves?
| They're a bunch of BIG FAT PHONIES!!! | 21 | |
| Some of their advice is helpful | 29 | |
| They're so helpful, I'm getting women left & right! | 2 |
I think PUA's advice is good in the concept of being confidence, funny and interesting but I think a lot of guys take it word for word and have no personality besides what they've learned.
I've read The Game by Neil Strauss and found it interesting but the guys who treat PUA material like a bible are douche bags. I guess some guys just don't "get it"
I think the "flavor" of advice that PUA gives you can be valuable (and can ONLY be valuable) as long as you understand that the goal is to build confidence rather than get the woman.
And then once you have that confidence, you can realize that the methods and exercises they tell you to do are 100% bullshit.
I would put forward that most guys are going to one day want an affirming relationship in which they can get emotional support that is vastly more valuable to most people than sex could ever be. The advice these "gurus" will give you is the exact opposite of what would get one of those relationships started. So really you will be training yourself for a life of meaningless sex in which you search vainly for a emotional connection to make the sex actually worthwhile but find yourself instead bedding people with equally empty intentions and similar inability to create that emotional connection.
If that sounds good to you, then go for it. Otherwise just start thinking of women as people like yourself and start talking to them as such, really that is the only secret. Think of them as people, Talk to them.
My gut instinct is that they prey on and take advantage of insecure people, and that the advice they give isn't helpful at all. The only way in which it might be helpful would be if it increased your confidence, but the advice itself would be of any help. It makes me pretty angry, to be honest. Like bananaface says: the sort of tactics PUAs are associated (at least in terms of stereotypes) with are very smarmy and, I would imagine, the sort of thing women hate.
I came across a blog post once (I'd post a link, but I don't have it) that was about this PUA book which advocated invading a woman's personal space, touching her, not worrying about little things like *consent*... basically persuading people to commit sexual assault. I'm sure not all PUAs and "gurus" are as bad as that, but I imagine they are equally unlikely to actually make a woman like you.
EDIT: http://caseymalone.com/post/53339539674/this-is-not-fucking-harmless Link found, if that kind of rapist shit interests anyone :P
I in many ways despise the whole GAME and pickup artist thing. Yet I feel forced to say that the Casey Malone article was a total beat up.
The quotes are taking completely out of context and if you read the article I think you will come away with a very different impression. My impression being that the guy is in no way a rapist or someone encouraging others to rape or sexually assault others.
Search for "Above The Game Part 7: Physical Escalation & Sex"
In the article he wrote there are numerous warnings to stop if a girl states that tells the guy to back off. Would you find that in a rape manual?
It was really just the typical feminist hit job on any male expression of sexuality.
I can see what you mean. Maybe I ought to say that the whole thing isn't some sort of rape manual, but it definitely gives some very mixed messages about consent and I don't think anyone could honestly say it isn't at the least extremely creepy.
To illustrate what I mean by mixed messages:
1) "Even when a girl rejects your advances, she KNOWS that you desire her. That's hot. It arouses her physically and psychologically" - This quote implies that even if a woman rejects you she still secretly wants you, which I think would lead a lot of people to presume that continuing even after "no" is fine so long as the no isn't forceful enough.
2) Yet in the very next paragraphs it says that you should stop if a woman resists.
3) Then it says "If a woman isn't comfortable, take a break and try again later"... but how long is "later"? Two minutes, ten minutes, half an hour, on the next date...? Some people might interpret that as meaning "try again as soon as you can", which I think would count as continuing after "no".
So yeah, there are enough mixed messages regarding consent in that book/article that I honestly think some people could interpret them as meaning sexual assault is okay. There's three completely different definitions of what is okay being represented in just a couple of paragraphs.
However, I do admit the blog post I linked to wasn't fair or representative of the book/article and I should have checked out the Reddit page myself before post the link. A lesson learned :P
However, it is worth mentioning that Kickstarter agreed with me and apologised for not pulling funding from the project http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/we-were-wrong
I would say it is creepy just the way he talks about it and the language he uses.
"So yeah, there are enough mixed messages regarding consent in that book/article that I honestly think some people could interpret them as meaning sexual assault is okay. There's three completely different definitions of what is okay being represented in just a couple of paragraphs."
I would agree with that.
I have mixed feelings about the Kickstarter thing. I can definitely see their point, the book is creepy and the message is negative(to me) and sexist. However I also think that they either need to be a totally free speech zone or have a well written set of standards and rules that they apply to each case. I dislike it when a company just decides on a whim what is acceptable or unacceptable with only a loose set of rules. Though that is just my opinion, they are free to run their business as they please.
Wow, any man who actually listens to these idiots has to be desperate. These PUAs or dating coaches or whatever the hell they call themselves try turn you into something you're not. Why make women fall in love with a fake personality when you can make them fall in love with the real you? Plus women know when you've been listening to a pick up artist, they've seen and heard it all before. So you guys may as well change your strategy like actually growing some balls for starters. And no, I'm not saying this to support the feminists. I'm just saying that these dating coaches or PUAs are con artists who prey on the weak minded and the desperate.
"any man who actually listens to these idiots has to be desperate."
Duh.
"So you guys may as well change your strategy like actually growing some balls for starters"
It's the whole point of their marketing all along. Now whether they do it for the money of the desperate foremost that's definitely true. There's no free lunch.
They are great to learn new pick up lines: "Are you from Tennessee? Because you are the only "ten" I see!"
I hate it when women say that these pick up artists or dating gurus or whatever are sexist or pigs for approaching woman and asking them out. And then even hate on them for helping other guys on getting better at it. I mean, seriously?
I think its all a tad silly. Strangely enough, with the concept of traditional matchmaking I don't considered it to be very silly.
I think they could be very useful to some, not as useful to others.
It depends on the individuals.
I've never heard of anyone using these. Do they offer anything new? Is there really anything new to offer? I think some people over-complicate things, and it's not like there are a whole load of secrets. Although, I've never had to "pick-up" someone, and I'm sure it's pretty daunting. But "Artist" and "Guru"? Bit undeserved, isn't it? But then again, I have no idea what these sorts of people even say to the people they're probably charging for advice. Do they give them some sort of strategy? Chat up lines? How smarmy.
I don't know what they do, or if they're helpful, so I don't know! Didn't realise they were a thing. I can only imagine that a small minority of people use them.