The virtue of existence

38 Comments

What is the virtue of existence?

“huh?”

What commonality do all things that cease to exist share? Rome, a human corpse, Feudalism; what common root do they all have that forced them into extinction while other ideas and entities like Democracy, Islam and Israel have thrived?

Why is it that the tiny town of Numantia fell to the Roman Empire while a single Sumerian leading a band of 600 quickly overpowered an army of 180,000? Why is it that democratic principles overpowered fascism in WWII yet 2500 years earlier militaristic Sparta held the mastery over democratic Athens?

What grants victory and causes some things to become non-entities? Or maybe they were always non-entities but have only now come to the totality of their nature?

“If it cannot conquer, then it must be conquered”, as it goes.

Repeated: The virtue of existence is….

Strength 5
Chance 14
Shrewdness 6
Human will 29
Momentum of history 5
Lobelia 3
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Comments ( 38 )
  • taciturn
    12 years ago

    Time is fickle, and there is nothing that separates coming into being from approaching death. You ask how the democratic institution exists as if it always will, and as if it makes any difference that it lasted a cosmic hiccup longer than another institution. The historical dialectic can't keep equilibrium at all times. So we travel along a sine wave and are surprised when we look back at the pattern.

    Try not to patronize. A discussion is always more interesting than a lecture.

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    • Anonymous Post Author
      12 years ago

      Democracy won't always be around, that's true. My point is that it emerged from its state of non-existence for a reason and how something comes into being, determines how it goes out of it so if there was a reason for it existing, there will be a reason (virtue) for it's non-reality.

      I'm not sure what else you're trying to say other than pointing out that history has endured many movements.

      But if you agree that there is a reason for something existing, what is the thing that keeps it going for a time? What allows it to endure?

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      • taciturn
        12 years ago

        I'm saying that you're projecting a pattern that does not exist; you're looking back at the motion of history and asking why the tides rise and fall. Therein lies the problem for me. I don't agree that there is a "reason" for something to come in to existence. The universe doesn't know what "purpose" means because it's a human structure.

        The question of what allows things to endure is a non-issue to me. Once something exists, it does until it doesn't, and the amount of time between those two points is pretty inconsequential. So you must be asking why things come to exist, or why they cease to exist, and I can't answer those questions for you. Luckily it appears as though you have the answer and just want people to beg for it, so I hope it makes enough sense to you.

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        • Anonymous Post Author
          12 years ago

          You say the universe doesn't know purpose. But if that's true then why does the tree, the plant, the animal, man himself and even abstract studies like art have purpose?

          In my view, I see all things as having structure. If you look, you'll see that all things exist for the purpose of serving something beyond their own being. I don't think there's anything in the physical or metaphysical you can point to that exists merely for its own sake.

          But this is off-topic. I'm not interested in discussing why existence exists but how it keeps on existing.

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          • taciturn
            12 years ago

            You say that as if it's a fact. It's not. I don't believe any of those things have purpose. Purpose requires intention; intention requires creation, and I don't believe in a creator. There is no blueprint to humanity.

            What IS this purpose you speak of anyway? How is it defined? Is the flower's purpose to provide nectar for the bee? Is the bee's purpose to spread the pollen of the flower? As if the universe understood that one day the flower would reach its goal? I see it the opposite way. The things that came after adapted to what it saw. The bee learned the taste of nectar. The flower developed more adhesive pollen. Culture works in much the same way and it's happening constantly, but difficult to see because it isn't in retrospect.

            Like I said, the question of how something "keeps on existing" doesn't really make sense to me. Is it possible for something to exist and NOT keep on existing? Even a momentary existence counts as existence. You're asking why some things exist for longer periods than others. There is no single answer to that, which is the only reason you can dismiss everyone else's answers. All of those things come in to play. Even the plant.

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            • [Old Memory]
              12 years ago

              So you agree that all of nature and the metaphysical exists to serve something outside itself (purpose) but then say there is no purpose since purpose hinges upon intent?

              So which is it? Either you said at first was a falsehood or the latter was.

              I hear you say, "It has purpose now in the retrospective but didn't then"

              How can that be possible? You've already said that purpose requires intent. So what, are you saying the universe evolved with intent? Is the universe one with us?

              And I have another true thing to tell you, flutterhigh.

              My purpose is to learn, not to be hounded by the insecure. If you have nothing to add, go elsewhere or risk your comments becoming non-entities in my thread.

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  • equanimity
    12 years ago

    Cooperation, maybe.

    If we can't cooperate, we are doomed.

    Cooperation = Language.
    Language = shared knowledge.
    Knowledge = an advantage.

    Oh, what do I know: nothing. I'm talking out of my ass about something I know nothing about. It was just a guess.

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    • Anonymous Post Author
      12 years ago

      With who should we cooperate? Why? Is there a point at which cooperation becomes futile?

      Or should we go along our own path, watching carefully the paths of others and gleaning what knowledge we can from them?

      Why do you think Shrewdness (knowledge) is the virtue of existence?

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  • Darkoil
    12 years ago

    Before I looked at your answers chance was what came to mind, the problem with that is I don't think chance is a virtue, neither are most of your other answers.

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    • Anonymous Post Author
      12 years ago

      Chance again?

      If you look at nature all things exist for a reason and a purpose. If it's true of nature, the fields of mathematics and psychology, then it must be true of this.

      All things in existence flow from a single source and a river's source doesn't flow forth with corrupted water then pure. If all the available "channels" point to there being a reason behind all actions and all entities, then there must be a singular reason behind this one as well.

      Just because you can't see the virtue of existence doesn't mean you should throw up your arms and say, "Welp! It doesn't exist"

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      • Darkoil
        12 years ago

        If you truely believe that a person is alive for a purpose then there must be a whole grand scheme that we are not aware of, we play our part and fulfill our purpose.

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  • Bobblahblah
    9 years ago

    What narcotics were you using when writing this post?

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  • dude_Jones
    11 years ago

    ADAPTATION.

    Strength, Chance, Shrewdness, Human Will, and the Momentum of History will always overwhelm events in the short run. But, in the long run "Adaptation" is the prevailing characteristic for all of life, and all of culture. It is subtle and pervasive.

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  • Tommy-B
    12 years ago

    Life really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. We are all inconsiderate specks of dust floating in an astral plain. Every second people die and people are born and the circle of life repeats itself over and over and over and so it has been for millions and millions and it will continue to do so until the clock finally runs out. So cherish every moment you have in this life because it may be your last.

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  • Neo.T
    12 years ago

    I can't help but think that very same person who posted '' The Division of Mankind '' has posted this very same thing

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  • ariannel
    12 years ago

    Human will + right place + right time

    All the things you gave for examples are human constructions so, to me, they existed and ceased to exist because a human or a group of humans acted and, through their decisions, changed history.

    Now, if you're asking the reason why the something like the Shoemaker Levi comet's existence ended when it hit Jupiter, then I can't have an answer for you because I don't know the force behind non-human events.

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  • [Old Memory]
    12 years ago

    um ..lobelia, puke root? is this a trick question . i will wait for the answer

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    • Anonymous Post Author
      12 years ago

      No tricks.

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      • [Old Memory]
        12 years ago

        a shared dream or thought that touched a genetic memory?

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  • wigsplitz
    12 years ago

    I'm not really 100% 'behind' your question. Virtue? Can you rephrase the question? The question is a little busy, and do you mean 'a' virtue, or 'by' virtue of? I think of virtues as morals, so the phrasing of the question and the answers don't really jive with me.

    Anyway, the one thing I keep thinking of is 'significance' (percieved, actual). But i'm not sure if I'm really understanding your question. So I'll leave it at that for now.

    I'd like to fully understand your question, so if you have the time or desire, I'd appreciate if you rephrased it a tad.

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    • Anonymous Post Author
      12 years ago

      Basically what I'm driving at is that there must be some substance/truth/virtue that keeps all things going; that allows them to endure the storms of time whereas others crumble underneath it's weight.

      What do you think is the Virtue (reason) for that existence?

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      • wigsplitz
        12 years ago

        OK, thanks. It was just a bit confusing! I'll think more on it. It's a tough question.

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        • [Old Memory]
          12 years ago

          You are most welcome =)

          And yeah it is a tough question. Which is the reason why I posted it. I'm still not sure of the answer myself but my view of it is posted to dom180's reply.

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  • dom180
    12 years ago

    In many cases, simple Chance. I can't see a better explanation for many things.

    In other cases, it could be Strength or Shrewdness or Determination or Attitude or a whole plethora of variables. All those THINGS have in common is that they survived (or didn't). There is no reason to suggest that only one trait is responsible for this.

    A good question, but one with no answer, sensible or otherwise.

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    • Anonymous Post Author
      12 years ago

      "There is no reason to suggest that only one trait is responsible for this"

      I think there is. If you look at Hugh Latimer, Joan of Arc, the rise (and fall) of Fascism, and even something as simple as an individual death you'll start to see a pattern appear before you for the trait that all non-entities share.

      I won't share what that is yet, but I think it's by one virtue alone that civilization is built.

      But why Chance? Sure random things like weather, hailstorms, attitudes, etc have had massive influence on the course of struggles(and by extension the momentum of human history) but it was never the determining factor in the embittered struggle for domination over the human mind.

      The thought gets repeated quite a bit on television/culture but what basis is there for it? What reasoning?

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      • dom180
        12 years ago

        "Sure random things like weather, hailstorms, attitudes, etc have had massive influence on the course of struggles(and by extension the momentum of human history) but it was never the determining factor in the embittered struggle for domination over the human mind."

        Of course it has. Individual deaths are caused by weather all the time. Tsunamis? Hurricanes? Volcanic eruption? Whole civilisations have been destroyed by those things before now. Ever heard of Pompei? A whole city, decimated by effectively random volcanic eruption.

        I've searched and searched my mind for a common factor, but I just can't find one. Therr are too many examples, too many variables for them to have anything in common.

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      • dom180
        12 years ago

        What do you think the common factor is? If you can see one, I'd love to hear your opinion.

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        • Anonymous Post Author
          12 years ago

          I'll tell you but its just my thinking for now.

          The Romans at Pompeii died because they were ignorant of what was coming. With knowledge, they could have avoided that fate but a man's actions now reflect his fate then.

          Joan of Arc was deceived and betrayed and made into a non-entity; her deception hinged on her ignorance. The man who dies in a car accident dies because of ignorance, on his part and the other driver's.

          The world and all it's problems exist because of ignorance toward what to do. Think about it: Even this site itself exists because we're all ignorant on some issue. Even myself.

          If Ignorance is what threatens existence, then Shrewdness is the virtue of it.

          Against the shrewd man, no human power can prevail.

          ____

          And you are right about it being Strength, Human Will in some cases but I see these things flowing from Shrewdness.

          Rome proved itself fit for existence by destroying Numantia but that strength was founded in Shrewdness. Over years, their pragmatic economic and social policies had made them a power upon the earth.

          I'm bothered by the accusation that I'm patronizing. My intent was to begin a discussion.

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          • dom180
            12 years ago

            You are presuming that humans are capable of infinite knowledge, which I believe is untrue. If humans are incapable of infinite knowledge, then we are not able to predict our every problem in the future. We cannot be expected to predict our every problem without potential for infinite knowledge. If this is the case, there will always be unpredictable futures, events we must put down to chance.

            If we consider theories of physics, it is thought that there are infinite numbers of parallel "universes", and infinite new others are being created at the speed of thought. For every conceivable outcome of an event in the whole universe, a new universe must be made to accommodate every possible outcome.

            If we take that there are infinite possible outcomes to every event, and each event has to happen in one "universe" or another, then it is impossible to predict which outcome will occur in our universe, regardless of the bounds of shrewdness.

            You might want to disregard those last paragraphs; I'm a bit rusty on this and I didn't re-research it, and someone normally points out where I went wrong when this happens. But my first point stands, nonetheless.

            And you are definitely beginning discussion, that is for sure.

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            • Anonymous Post Author
              12 years ago

              The potential for anything always exist. Whether it comes into being hinges on something else entirely.

              But yes, the totality of Shrewdness will never be known to man. If it did he'd be God. It's not his place to answer the Great Question, only to pursue it as much as he can.

              "humans aren't capable of infinite knowledge"

              If that's true, then we can never know for sure. So either way the possibility exists if only the potential of it.

              But in the land of the obese, the fat man is thin so it's man's hope then to glean as much knowledge to himself so he can endure longer than other entities.

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  • Energy
    12 years ago

    Love.

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    • Anonymous Post Author
      12 years ago

      Fail.

      A non-sensical answer breeds a non-sensical retort.

      But say, why "Love"? There have been many in history who fought for virtuous(loving)causes and were soundly defeated; their corpses thrown in unmarked graves.

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    • bananaface
      12 years ago

      Do you really think that?

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