Is it normal to believe that you don't owe society anything?

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19 Comments

I didn't ask to be born. As long as I choose to do what I like and not hurt anyone else it's fine. But I don't owe society anything. No one does. Being a good person is one thing (That's more of a moral obligation though) but other then that, you aren't obligated to live the live society constructed for you:
1) Go to school. Including college. Get a job.
2) Get married soon after college. Move to a child-friendly suburb.
3) Have the 2 kids.
and
4) Work until you're 65 and retire.

You're not a loser if you decide to spend time doing hobbies you like. No time is wasted if you use it to your liking. Besides, I have SSI that mom uses to pay the rent (along with my brother's SSI). I can afford to not have a job for a little while. With how the American economy is, it's not likely I'd be able to find one anyway. And I refuse to work minimum wage at a fastfood joint or retail.

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Based on 49 votes (39 yes)
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Comments ( 19 )
  • anti-hero
    9 years ago

    You don't owe society anything, but society owes you something in the form of your families welfare checks? Fuck you.

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  • disthing
    9 years ago

    I don't believe life is a debt to be paid.

    However, I do believe if you're reliant upon 'the system' for your survival, you're obligated to pay into it if and when possible.

    Of course, if you live entirely self-sufficiently i.e. you eat your own food, drink your own water, don't use public services paid for through taxation, don't use a fiat currency, source your own electricity/gas/energy, own your land etc. then you certainly don't owe society or any central government a thing.

    From your post, it sounds like you're relying on state benefits to survive, which is actually relying on society to survive. In other words, you're being paid by the American public to live. That payment is awarded to you on the understanding that you'll seek work when you're able to, and return the favour through taxed income when you're able to. So it seems like you, or at least your mum and brother, do owe society something :/

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  • TrustMeImLying
    9 years ago

    Your post reminded me of the movie V for Vendetta. I sort of agree with you, but I also believe that the "life" society has created is a useful template for the majority to follow. It may feel like being controlled but it prevents things from getting chaotic. I've often thought complete freedom to be a kind of power, and trust me not everyone can have power and resist being corrupted by it. Plus if everyone started doing whatever they wanted, some would wander to strange places and actions, which they have. Damn I feel like I'm emitting a lot of philosophical dung today. No more!

    Bottom line, you're not a loser. At least you have hobbies. And it's very okay to not have a job for a little while.

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    • disthing
      9 years ago

      I've always thought that the notion of absolute freedom is far more appealing than the reality would be.

      I think it's an inescapable human instinct to form societies around a central governing structure, if only for security and leadership.

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      • TrustMeImLying
        9 years ago

        Completely agree. That instinct is the reason I've forever mentally wrestled with the concept of religion and struggled to accept it, because religion seems to be built on the same "central governing structure" principle.

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      • slings_and_arrows
        9 years ago

        Not if the society is small enough. There are small tribes of people around the world who have nothing to do with the bullshit conveyer belt we are born into that OP described. Gypsysailor also obviously does it differently.

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        • disthing
          9 years ago

          Even most tribes have rules and rituals, as well as a 'governing structure' of sorts, a hierarchy. You have your elders, your witch doctors, your tribal leaders... It's rare there isn't some de facto head of the community who has the final say.

          Even if you shrink down to an individual family, there's usually someone in charge.

          So I stand by my statement that it's in our instinct to form societies around a governing structure.

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          • slings_and_arrows
            9 years ago

            Ok yes I couldn't disagree with you there, not sure what I meant now really? Maybe I thought you meant like a big government system with politicians etc?. Yes there will always be a structure or some kind and rules in a group. But some of these tribes live in a way I could only dream of...and it seems more "free" than what we've been born into.

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  • green_boogers
    9 years ago

    My view is a bit different. I think that culture enhances the survival of a group by encouraging each of the members to do what they are best at. In this way, the total group output becomes better than the sum of each individual doing all tasks for himself. Over the centuries, more productive cultures edge out inferior cultures, as Darwin would have predicted. Now in the twenty-first century we have rapacious capitalism pressuring all to innovate and be efficient.

    If you want to live and piss in the bloody desert to write profound literature, nobody gives a fuck. Suit yourself.

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    • slings_and_arrows
      9 years ago

      Well that was extremely turdsome.

      1. "Over the centuries" you say "more productive cultures edge out"...Many countries can not become productive because of their extreme climate and agriculture, and farming are the basis of building "productive" societies. So no wonder that countries with very hot climates couldn't become "productive" as they were still stuck on the first rung of the development ladder.

      2. "Rapacious capitalism pressurising all to innovate and be efficient," ah yes like the greedy bankers causing the market collapse. How anyone can blindly defend capitalism and say it creates innovation...yeh only for those who are hungry to get rich like the soulless advertising types I'm sure. This "innovation" that capitalism brings in its wake is just more advertising; it's a fucking disease infecting everywhere it can get to and it's getting into every crevice on the internet. Those people want money more than they want sex. And yeh they're really "efficient" in all those banking, marketing, consultant bullshit jobs - just things that feed the capitalist machine, whereby those capitalists create systems which keep them rich and others remain trapped in poverty. They add nothing good to this world. But you did good on your school exams and went to a good university and now reckon you're some upstanding citizen. Leading to point 3.

      3. Artists, writers, thinkers etc. actually have something to add to humanity. They actually care and want the world to be better. People do give a fuck about Shakespeare, Dostoyevsky, Flaubert, Zola, Kant, etc. etc. more than they ever will about the majority of boring people on this planet who just want to amass money and think they've achieved some great goal in life by being able to pay their overpriced mortgage etc. etc.
      Plus, being a writer or artist you are driven by your own creative need - there is freedom in that, and something genuine and special which maybe you can't appreciate it, and it takes balls too and you are own person answering only to yourself, unlike being another mindless, city worker who's got a "good job," coz your parents expect it you don't want all your friends making more money than you. Artists have something to say and care, and have the guts to follow their passion.

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      • Rich_Guy
        9 years ago

        Stock ownership concentrates wealth, deary. It does not steal money from the poor. You sound like you fallen under the spell of the fallacious logic espoused by Marxist pigs.

        Wealth is not fixed. If you want more wealth, you have to produce more wealth. Ask Fidel Castro why Cuba is a poor country.

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        • slings_and_arrows
          9 years ago

          Probs I do sound like that. I'm not saying I know a lot about it, but I don't like how someone is admiring rapacious capitalism and seeing it as the main driving force for humanity. I just don't like what he said. Maybe someone cleverer than me can say it better.

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      • green_boogers
        9 years ago

        What the fuck? You sound like you believe in "virtue" or something.

        Point 2. You get right to the heart of the matter here. Investment Banking parasites are attracted to the efficient societies because those societies create the most wealth for them to exploit and steal. And, there is pressure from other human parasites for them to steal it more efficiently. Right? So what? Haven't you ever heard of a food chain?

        Point 1. If you don't like rich kleptomaniacs, move to a fucking extreme climate.

        Point 3. I agree that mindless technology jobs do little to advance the torch of human enlightenment. But who gives a fuck? Most people are too dumb to appreciate Shakespeare, Dostoyevsky, Flaubert, Zola, Kant, etc. etc. Are you morally superior to dumb people? Or are you like me: a non-judgmental cynic that attaches little value to wealth.

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        • slings_and_arrows
          9 years ago

          What would it mean to believe in virtue? Maybe I do...

          In Point 2 you say these human parasites pressurise other human parasites to steal more efficiently? But originally you seemed to admire this "innovation" and "efficiency.' And then in point 3 you say you don't put much value on wealth anyway...so I don't know what you think is important. You seem to be confusing your argument.

          There are other jobs that people do out of passion for their subject e.g, scientists, teachers, artists as I've said...they add more to humanity than what comes from your rapacious capitalism. Even marx they say knew the advancements that capitalism could bring. We might have a seemingly civilised society that can do many modern things, but I doubt such advancements could have taken place so quickly without slave labor or at least very low wage workers to take advantage of with low currency levels in other countries.

          Most people are too dumb, but so what? Theres still a great number of people who appreciate high art, and its still going to be taught and enrich those people's lives. But saying it doesn't matter just coz dumb people cant appreciate it, is a bit ridiculous. They might make the majority, but their (lack of) thoughts aren't important to me. No need to cast pearls before swine.

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          • green_boogers
            9 years ago

            I can see my argument is confusing you. I am being a cultural anthropologist here by saying that subtle SELECTION between societies is inevitable over time. I have no admiration nor disdain for feudalism, capitalism, socialism or the like. My viewpoint is mostly contrary to Political Engineers who would say government can make a country an equitable happy place at the expense of non-optimal economic behavior by the public.

            So once again, I am arguing for the pervasiveness of long-term Darwinian selection both at a physical and cultural level. It may not make the world better, but it cannot be stopped.

            PS. You're a smart babe. I do enjoy your company.

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            • slings_and_arrows
              9 years ago

              Don't patronise me babycakes, it wasn't clear where your personal thoughts/feelings lay, and call me "babe" again and I may have to sucker punch your ass...you're lucky I didn't do it this time. I did enjoy your company, then didn't, then did again and just now didn't which made me feel better that you ignored my pm message...but now you explained a bit more where your leanings are I guess I think you're ok again. You're a tricky one. Can't quite make you out, do you have asperger's? (Serious question, no insult intended - there is one thing that points to that)

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  • EccentricWeird
    9 years ago

    You'd have a point if you lived in the woods and hunted with a spear, but you owe your entire existence to this great hulking but imperfect machine called civilization. And unless you're about to run off to the forest and cut off every technological and societal advance that was given to you, you'll always owe something back

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  • RoseIsabella
    9 years ago

    Do you enjoy smelling your own farts?

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