Is it normal to believe that men should have no say in abortions?

39% Normal

Here's my reasons for believing so. Feel free to debate this in the comment section:

1) They'll never get pregnant or give birth.

2) Being pregnant can be incredibly taxing on a woman (even long after she gives birth). She could even die. And if she already has an existing child or some other dependent (such as a pet) to look after, the dependant in question would be left without a caretaker.

3) It's the woman's body; her choice. Alot of men want too much control over womens' reproduction rights to begin with.

4) A woman shouldn't be punished and forced to give birth to a baby that was forced upon her by incest or rape. Or even failed contraception. They shouldn't stop having sex just because of the risk of pregnancy. There are other solutions. They only teach abstinence in school. It doesn't work as good as some think.

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5) It's likely the father will have no place in the child's life anyway so it should only be up to the woman whether or not she carries it to term/raises it herself, gives it up for adoption, or aborts it. Well, even if the father is in the kid's life, the divorce rates are high.

I firmly believe that some issues should only be exclusive to a certain sex.

Voting Results

39% Normal

Based on 38 votes (15 yes)

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Comments ( 61 )

[Old Memory]

9 years ago | pl

I can agree with most of this except #5. There are dead beat dads, but most dads are not like that.
Views on abortion should be something that should be talked about prior to sex to make sure both people agree on what would happen if pregnancy happens.

I would not tell someone else not to get an abortion, but personally it is not something I would want to do.
I actually do not even want kids, but if I were to accidently get a girl pregnant, I would accept full responsibility. Because I feel this way on the matter I would only want sex with someone who feels the same way. I don't think parents need to be in a relationship either, but would be ok with someone I judged to make a good mother and someone I can get along with.
I don't agree with parents who are together just for the kid. My parents did that and all they did was argue.
Plenty of kids have separated parents with split custody, which I think is just as healthy as married parents.

This is a good topic too. I don't know why it was reported.

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- Ellenna
  
  9 years ago
  
  Good response, except I reckon it's totally unrealistic to expect people to talk about possible abortion before they have sex, given that there would be very few unwanted pregnancies if contraception were talked about first AND THEN USED.
  
  What is this reporting stuff anyway? Guess I should find out
  
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dom180

9 years ago

Swift disclaimer: sorry, this account is hetero-centric and not fully inclusive of people who are trans, or people who are agender, or people who use IVF, or or anything other than in vivo, cis, hetero baby-making. I would love to talk about people who are trans and agender, and people who use IVF, and surrogacy, and adoption, but this is super complicated as it is.

It's a catch 22. When two people (e.g. a potential mother and a potential father) vote on an issue (e.g. whether to carry the baby to term) and they disagree, who should win? It's an impossible question, but I will break it down as best I can.

A few logical rules to consider:

- All people (including women and men) have a basic right to decide how their bodies are used. Denying them this is unacceptable.

- Abortion is an either/or thing. It's a binary decision. There is no such thing as a compromise over an abortion. You can't have half a baby.

- You CANNOT have a situation where there is equal say. Equal say leaves you open to a stalemate, which is not an outcome.

- "Doing nothing" is not the solution to the stalemate problem because choosing to allow natural birth is an ACTIVE DECISION.

- There is no way you can give some say to one partner, but most say to the other. Because abortion is a binary decision, giving one partner a greater say is the same as giving them the entire say. Provided we divide the issue along gendered lines, there are only two choices: give the man the entire say, or give the woman the entire say. We could also toss a coin (sounds utterly tasteless, but it is a genuine option), or build in an outcome bias (in the event of a stalemate the outcome is that the couple always abort, or they always go to term - whatever politicians decide is best for us collectively).

- In reality, in a stable relationship, a woman and a man would probably have this discussion and would probably listen to each other. And that's great! That's how a relationship should be run. However, this discussion isn't about that. This discussion is about *rights* and what should happen if the man and woman cannot agree.

This leaves four problematic possibilities. 1) Man decides to abort, even though the woman says no. 2) Man decides to carry to term, even though the woman says no. 3) Woman decides to abort, even though the man says no. 4) Woman decides to carry to term, even though the man says no.

All these possibilities are bad, but you could say that there are shades of grey. There is an argument to be made that forcing a woman to have an abortion (which could happen if you didn't allow women to choose) is worse than anything you could do to a man in this framework. Forced abortion is rape, and rape is terrible. It's a compelling argument, for sure. However, it does ignore the potential trauma for a man. His experience is not anywhere near as physically invasive, and most men might not even mind, but that isn't necessarily important. It's down to you to make your individual decision. Personally, I think forcing a woman to have an abortion (or forcing her to carry a pregnancy to term) are worse than anything you could do to a man in this framework.

I'm afraid this is an essay without a conclusion. I can see no answer. It's just about possible that there is a solution which involves slightly less suffering that the alternative, but it's not simple. By all means reply if you have any thoughts though, 'cause I'd love to hear them.

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- (s)aint
  
  9 years ago
  
  What you said is correct. I only wish there could be a way to allow the father to early in the process sign a release paper so that he would not be forced to be a father even financially. If the woman decides to keep the baby against the will of the father he should not in any way shape or form have to finance her.
  She should think the situation through and keep it only if she can manage it.
  
  I will also have to add that I cannot know for sure, but it seems to me like a lot of the users on IIN is located in America? And judged by my American friends the sex-education around there is horrible and parents are most likely to say "Don't have sex" rather than informing their kids about the importance of protection.
  
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  - Ellenna
    
    9 years ago
    
    Oh come on, she didn't get pregnant by herself! If he didn't take precautions he's equally responsible for any baby that results - it's not the child's fault its father didn't want it, he still fathered it
    
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    - (s)aint
      
      9 years ago
      
      Sex isn't just "making babies" Sex can be so much more and people who are engaging in sexual activities are NOT necessarily mature (nor fit) to be parents.
      
      It should be a guys choice to not be involved in a child's life if he knows this since day one. If he however bails on her when it's too late to abort it that fucker should pay child support!
      
      And a guy can wear a condom and a condom CAN break. It has happened to me once, thankfully nothing happened that time. I was quick to go on the pills after that incident.
      
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      - Ellenna
        
        9 years ago
        
        Of course sex isn't just "making babies" BUT also of course, it does have that potential for most people doing it.
        
        I don't understand you second sentence about the man's choice not to be involved if he knows what from day one? Apologies if I'm misunderstanding you, but you seem to be implying that if there's unwanted pregnancy and the woman doesn't abort it, the man shouldn't be expected to financially support her and the child? In other words, they both made a mistake, but she bears all the brunt of it?
        
        The point about abortion is that it isn't a desirable thing, just sometimes necessary when contraception fails. No-one will ever convince me that an embryo or foetus has more rights than the woman unwillingly carry it. Ideally the man should be involved in the decision, but should never have the final say, that must remain with the woman.
        
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        (s)aint
        
        9 years ago
        
        I'll try to rephrase myself. English isn't my first language so sometimes I do get carried away and lose all concept of grammar.
        
        I agree with your last paragraph to a 100% Every child deserve to be born wanted by at least one parent and "pro-lifers" annoy the shit out of me because they, as you say, claim that the foetus has more rights than the woman carrying it.
        
        Moving on to the part you didn't understand: If I have sex with a man and we use a condom and we are both saying that we do not want children and the condom breaks I do not think I have any right to force parenting upon him if I for some reason decide to keep the baby.
        I should be able to take care of it alone both emotionally and financially and not force him to pay for a child he didn't want.
        
        As you said, the woman does have the final say and if she cannot financially support a child she should not have it at all.
        
        Unsure if you and I can ever agree on this however since it seems to be a subject were people have very different opinions and it may also have to do with how easy it is where you are from for a woman to finance her child alone.
        
        Here in Sweden I'd just get more well-fare if the father wasn't signed on any papers. since we have a rather good structure when it comes to poor people= Everyone are entitled to the essentials (Food, clothes, home, health-care, education) So there really is no need for me to demand that a man pays for a child he do not want if the decision to keep it is only mine.
        
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  - dom180
    
    9 years ago
    
    Financial abortion is super duper complex and I don't know where I stand on it. Introducing it as an option invariably impacts on the mother's choice over whether to keep the child, and may force the mother's hand which, for me, is far from ideal. On the other side of the coin, it gives more freedom to the father. Really complex choice as far as I see it.
    
    Totally true what you say about sex ed :) Realistic, empowering sex ed is super important. I feel really educated about sex, and part of that is due to going to school in England in a secular school and being taught about sex properly. I wish everyone had the same opportunities as I did.
    
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    - (s)aint
      
      9 years ago
      
      IN Sweden we have the first sex-education when we are 12, the second when we are 14 and then above that most parents are really open to their children about it. I was never told not to have sex, I was told to use protection and never do something that I wasn't comfortable with.
      
      I get what you are saying about the financial part too, but at the same time a single mother should not keep it if she cannot afford it. Gender equality goes both ways and no one should be forced to become a parent against his will.
      
      And to expect people to refrain from sex until marriage just isn't fair either.
      
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disthing

9 years ago

I think the final decision should lie with the woman, although I'm open to valid arguments to the contrary.

I just can't imagine a society in which women could be forced to carry a child through 9 months followed by labour against their will. Or a society in which a women could be forced to abort a child against their will because the father didn't want it.

Of course, there's the argument that if someone risks getting pregnant, they should accept the consequences.

At the very least, though, a man has a right to know, except in very exceptional circumstances. I remember an ex saying to me if she got pregnant by me and had an abortion, she probably wouldn't tell me. And I was actually kind of disgusted at the disregard for my own right to know that a little thing I've been involved in conceiving existed in the first place, and then was killed in the second! I'd at least want a conversation about it...

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- disthing
  
  9 years ago
  
  p.s. I resent OP's insult to fathers in number 5, and the implication that divorce rates matter one fucking bit.
  
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  - dom180
    
    9 years ago
    
    I can get on board with everything you've said here, and it makes me wonder why I spent so long on my comment :P
    
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    - disthing
      
      9 years ago
      
      I think you went into much more detail than I did and offered a great argument, actually - especially about it being a binary decision! :)
      
      It's such a difficult topic to tackle.
      
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RoseIsabella

9 years ago

It won't kill you to keep your legs closed.

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- (s)aint
  
  9 years ago
  
  I'm guessing you have a low libido or is currently single? It's easier said than done.
  
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  - derpyderp
    
    9 years ago
    
    Not necessarily sticking up for Rose here but, well, let's just say that everyone's different.
    It would seem there are women (& men) with a high sex drive who still stick to committed relationships.
    
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    - (s)aint
      
      9 years ago
      
      Oh I like Rose! So no hard feelings here at least.
      
      I think you got me wrong here, I have a VERY high sex drive and I stick to my relationship too. I just wouldn't be able to live without sex to avoid getting pregnant. Been on the pills for seven years and has this far been very active and still no pregnancies.
      
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      - RoseIsabella
        
        9 years ago
        
        I like you too (S)aint even if we disagree on some things.
        
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      - derpyderp
        
        9 years ago
        
        Meh, she's alright at times :)
        
        Hey, just to be clear I wasn't questioning you or your fidelity...
        You seem cool from the comments I've seen you make.
        
        Have realised now that I might be wrong but I took her response to mean "If you aren't willing to get pregnant then don't fuck unless you're in a committed relationship" & therefore based your response off that.
        
        But I suppose I was thinking that most people in a committed relationship wouldn't opt for abortion even if pregnancy was unplanned, but thinking now that's just my beliefs & most likely (definitely) untrue for some people.
        
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        (s)aint
        
        9 years ago
        
        While I took it as "Don't fuck until you are ready to have a child" , some people do have this belief too so it wouldn't be strange to me at all.
        
        I would abort even if I was in a committed relationship unless we would both be ready for it. A child is a life-long commitment and you need to be aware of that.
        
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  - anti-hero
    
    9 years ago
    
    She's Catholic.
    
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  - RoseIsabella
    
    9 years ago
    
    I have a fairly high sex drive, and I am single. I choose not be intimate outside of a committed, long term and monogamous relationship. However, it wasn't always that way. It's certainly not easy, but it's freed me of a lot of useless and painful drama. When I say it won't kill anyone to not have sex I say it from my own hard won life experiences. I'm not even trying to date now, because I'm choosing to work on my own self improvement. I'll never find the kind of man I want to be with unless I become the best kind of woman I can be.
    
    To be honest it's especially difficult to be alone during Christmas and New Years time, but it's better than wasting time on a relationship of false intimacy that's based entirely on sex.
    
    Contrary to what OP seems to believe abortion and far left wing feminism are not the easy answers to everything. Abortion is the killing of a helpless, unborn child. The fetus does feel pain when it is aborted, it even screams and fights against it. Abortion is murder. Both women and men experience deep emotional trauma after an abortion. Typically people may not start to experience this trauma until as much 7 to 10 years after the procedure. The only ones who truly benefit from abortion are the doctors and clinics who make all their money killing for the sake of convenience.
    
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    - (s)aint
      
      9 years ago
      
      A friend of mine aborted her child since everyone around her sort of pushed the decision onto her. She has suffered a lot since then. I won't argue with you that a lot of people do suffers after a decision like this but if it's the best possible solution for everyone involved I cannot see why not.
      
      When it all comes down to it, you and I wont probably ever agree on this topic. Where you see a child with a right to it's life I would always put my own comfort first.
      
      As said earlier I haven't gotten pregnant once during these seven years of sexual activeness so if I DO get pregnant I feel like I at least did everything reasonable expected of me to prevent it except not having sex.
      
      But you DO have a point in not wanting to waste your time away on people who aren´t worthy of being in your life and a lot of relationships are based around sex these days.
      
      With my own high libido I really can't see myself in anything other. Of course there must be connections on other levels as well and I have experienced that a lot with my current boyfriend when he has shown me that there's a lot more to it all than just fucking each-other senseless.
      
      but for me, starting a relationship with sex has been what has worked best for me. probably because it's such a major and important part for me.
      
      Even if I had been with my current boyfriend for years and we had a strong and solid relationship a child still would not be a welcome part of my life if I am were I am today emotionally.
      
      My ADHD makes me really unstable and I refuse to go on medications for it. Been going to the gym since June and is going to start therapy to learn how to cope with some of my mood-swings.
      But no, currently I am NOT fit to be a parent and I am far too selfish to undergo a risky pregnancy that will leave my body in a different state than it was in the first place just to abort a child that has a great chance of developing ADHD itself and end up in a less than understanding environment.
      
      I just feel that we are already enough people on this planet and If I am still as much against having children when I am 35 I will undergo a sterilization. I just do not wish to do anything drastic whilst still being young and immature.
      
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      - RoseIsabella
        
        9 years ago
        
        Thanks for your response. Sometimes I think I have ADD or ADHD, but I dunno I'm already up to my neck just with my current mental health problems.
        
        Since you mention that you're going to the gym, one thing that really has been helping me a lot in the past few months is yoga.
        
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        (s)aint
        
        9 years ago
        
        I prefer to explain myself properly rather than to just go "Meh I think this and this and that"
        
        And basically if you have been going through your life with an undiagnosed ADHD that would explain a whole lot. People in that position are often under the false feeling that they are stupid and that there's a whole lot of other things wrong with them so getting a diagnosis on paper if you have one is really recommended.
        
        I do agree! Going to the gym was one of the best things I have ever started doing. Managed to go a quickie before Christmas dinner and enduring social activities and loud people was a whole lot easier afterwards.
        
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ScooterNyne

9 years ago

If the abortion is occurring in a healthy relationship then I think the man has just as much of as a say as the woman. They both participated in making that child. the responsibilty is 50/50. However if the unwanted pregnancy is happening due to rape or the father for a fact wont be around, than he or no other man or, woman for that matter, should have any say in what that woman does with the baby. just my opinion.

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- Ellenna
  
  9 years ago
  
  But only one of them is going to be pregnant for 9 months and then give birth: any alternative to the woman having the final say about abortion amounts to compulsory pregnancy, which is solely a female issue for obvious reasons
  
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  - ScooterNyne
    
    9 years ago
    
    I think you are really fixated on the idea that the woman has a physical struggle by having a baby and using that more than anything else to justify why the woman should have the ultimate say. And I dont think I agree with that. Not as a main argument any way.
    
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    - Ellenna
      
      9 years ago
      
      I'm not fixated on anything except that women are entitled to full control of our own bodies. I didn't say anything about it being a struggle, I was referring to the fact that pregnancy and childbirth are big changes in a woman's life, physically, emotionally, spiritually and financially, sometimes to the point of being crises, and she must be able to choose whether or not to go through those changes. No one else has the right to decide for her.
      
      There are enough children in the world already, some would say far too many, and I fail to see the point of adding to the already large numbers of unwanted, unloved, neglected and often abused children and that includes children taken in adoption.
      
      Have you ever been pregnant and given birth? I think not and if you're male, I don't want to be rude, but you can't possibly know how that can affect a woman. Pregnancy and childbirth can be wonderful but they can also be hell if the woman has no choice in the matter.
      
      Please note that I am not arguing that abortion is a good thing, but it must be a choice available for women facing unwanted pregnancies because the alternative is compulsory motherhood and compulsory childbirth.
      
      Finally, to all you anti-abortion people out there, are you also opposed to contraception? If not, why not and if so, are you aware that it sometimes fails?
      
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anti-hero

9 years ago

Troll.

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Avant-Garde

9 years ago

When it comes to murdering an unborn child, I think the husband should have just as much say as the wife. If the wife gets it without talking to her husband, she is cruel and selfish in robbing him of their child.

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- (s)aint
  
  9 years ago
  
  Abort* Not murder.
  
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- Ellenna
  
  9 years ago
  
  It's not a child, it's an embryo, and it's not murder
  
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howaminotmyself

9 years ago

Those are all reasons the woman should have control and not reasons the man should have none. These are not the same things.This is an extreme position. You offer no middle ground for healthy relationships and stable people. Not even a semi healthy situation. These things need to be looked at on a case by case basis.

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slings_and_arrows

9 years ago

It would be interesting to hear men's views on this who think they should have some say in this. It is their child too. What if the women is 8 months pregnant and coz the baby has some issue, decides to have an abortion, what if the man doesn't think the disability issue warranted having an abortion. What if at 5 months she suddenly feels she isn't ready to be a mother and wants an abortion when the dad was looking forward to being a father.

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- (s)aint
  
  9 years ago
  
  It isn't even legal to abort a 5 month foetus ...
  
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  - slings_and_arrows
    
    9 years ago
    
    "Under UK law, an abortion can usually only be carried out during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy as long as certain criteria are met" from uk national health service website. Thats 5 and and a half months nearly, isn't it?
    
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    - (s)aint
      
      9 years ago
      
      Jesus D: That's long ...
      In Sweden it is: After 18 weeks you must apply to social authorities to get an abortion if there's special cases.
      After 22 weeks no abortions are allowed ( Quote: The foetus would be able to survive outside of the womb)
      
      I am willing to agree that if the foetus is able to live outside of it's mother it´s a human being and it should not be aborted. People should know if they want the baby or not far earlier within the pregnancy ...
      
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      - (s)aint
        
        9 years ago
        
        special reasons* not cases, hurrdurr.
        
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  - anti-hero
    
    9 years ago
    
    It depends where you live.
    
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    - slings_and_arrows
      
      9 years ago
      
      Ok different us states probs have different rules.
      
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GiveMeAFuckingNameAlready!

9 years ago

That's his D.N.A your carrying. If didn't want it why accept it?.

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DaDoc

9 years ago

I would hope no one would get an abortion, but i know that's not the world we live in. If someone doesn't want a child they should do every to prevent that from happening. Abortion is a horrible act. I'm glad my mother didn't do that to me. Men should have a choice, if the woman doesn't want the baby the man should be able to care for him/her.

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Shiroyasha

9 years ago

I agree with you in part, but I don't like the way you are exposing you arguments.

Your points 1 to 3 are the same thing in different words.

About number 4, I frequently see this argument when people talk about abortion, but I find it really stupid to bring it up, because these cases do not represent a relevant number regarding unwanted pregnancies.

About number 4 again. The abstinence thing should be another point.

5: This is just a really misguided generalization.

I would say that in a married couple that has already agreed on having children, both people should have a say. In other cases, I believe the woman should decide.

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Derps

9 years ago

If the your are married I think it should be an equal decision. But I stand against abortion because it's not the child's fault because MOST of the time ithe women decides to have sex but sometimes it's rape. But it's not the child's fault your taking away a life practically murder. It would be better to birth the child and give it to adoption rather than kill it. But that's my own apinion.

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- Ellenna
  
  9 years ago
  
  It's not a child, it's an embryo or foetus
  
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BowTied

9 years ago

Lack of a uterus or ovaries does NOT disqualify a man from having compassion for the Unborn, nor does it or SHOULD it deny to a man the moral standing on the issue. The womb is a sacred place wherein life begins and forms. It should NEVER serves as a killing ground or slaughterhouse.

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slings_and_arrows

9 years ago

Would this be a good idea for the future/futuristic story:

all young kids have some preventative measure done which means their sperm and eggs are no longer viable. It could just be an injection along with the other vaccines you take at that age. It wouldn't interfere with hormones. Then when you are older and want to have babies you have to go to the clinic where they take a sample from you and your partner ( could be skin) and grow the sperm and egg and do the fertilization bit. They have a womb thing where they will grow the baby, they can add hormones and blood from the mother and father maybe. Both parties have to want the child, so if one doesn't want it anymore they abort. But that would be very rare as these babies would be planned. And they can only abort before a certain time under extreme circumstances.

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Are You Normal?

Is it normal to believe that men should have no say in abortions?