Is it normal that i hate the philosophy of aa/na

I can't say I've ever heard of that philosophy before but I'm with you on everything you say. I don't agree with telling people they are powerless against addiction. And I completely agree in giving people ways to be responsible for their own behaviour and to understand why they have become addicted and what the triggers are - what may be dangerous.

I say that as someone who has conquered two addictions and is gunning for the third and final one next month. It hurts to know I'm never again going to do something I enjoy(ed) and I'm panging reasonably badly (8 out of 10) as I write this but I love having the strength to resist. I haven't had a single slip-up and proving to myself that I have this strength is giving me a new kind of confidence. I feel pretty powerful; in a good way.

I dislike their philosophy as well. Here is the 12 steps:

Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable

Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity

Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God

Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves

Step 5 - Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs

Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character

Step 7 - Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings

Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all

Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others

Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted
it

Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out

Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

It's religious! It follows the 'disease' concept which is ludicrous, addiction is NOT a disease. They say you can 'never drink (or do drugs) ever again because you have a disease, which is bullshit.

South Park did an excellent show about the idiocy of AA. You should check it out, it's great!

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e14-bloody-mary

I think if you are truly addicted to something, a lot of people don't find it as easy as saying "I want to quit", and suddenly quitting. It simply isn't that easy for a lot of people.

I consume a heck of a lot of caffeine. I want to quit caffeine. I really do. A lot. But I can't. It isn't as easy as wanting to. Society teaches people that if they have enough determination they can do whatever they want. I don't agree. Saying that willpower alone is enough for anyone to quit something is a gross over-simplification of the problem of addiction. Life isn't a fucking fairytale where quitting something you're addicted to is as easy as "wanting to". Give me a fucking break. Quitting something you're addicted to is a big deal, and an inevitability of that is that some people aren't strong enough.

A lot of people in my family have been addicted to substances that are a lot, lot worse than caffeine; heroin. And a lot of them have wanted to quit. Some of them have been able to, some of them not. It has taken some of them to their graves. Some of those people wanted to quit. Really, really wanted to quit. But nothing in life is as easy as "wanting it". It is possible to overcome addiction by willpower alone, but it's difficult. For some people, it's too difficult. Not everyone has that strength inside them.

I think it's worth doing almost anything to kill a serious addiction that could end your life. Some people can't conquer an addiction without help. Don't begrudge them that help if it saves their life.

Have you ever been addicted to something?

I completely understand your reasoning.

Telling people that they are victims of addiction and that they are powerless to do anything in the way of using their inner willpower to control their behaviors is the wrong way to go.

I believe this in every facet of society, though. I think that, instead of teaching people that they are victims, that they need to be empowered to believe that their willpower which stems from mental abilities that, even expressed in commonly accepted science, are powerful in often very amazing ways, can lift them out of things like addiction, mental illness and over-eating.

While I don't think that will-power alone will cure someone of, say, depression, it will give someone enough strength to find it in themselves to continue their regimens of therapy and medications and to change their lifestyles. However, until people are no longer being told things like "You're a powerless victim of a force beyond your control", people will keep thinking that they are victims of their minds rather than perspective conquerors of them.

I agree, an alcoholic makes the conscious decision to get drunk, nobody forces them to do it. Now I don't have a problem with somebody who earns their own money and likes to get drunk every night, I do however have a problem with people who are claiming disability due to alcoholism and then spending all the money they get on vodka. These people should be rounded up in a big trench and set on fire because let's be fair, they are a complete waste of life and they are never going to contribute anything to society.

You really don't understand addiction. You're treating it as though these people are making a rational choice to use drugs rather than, say, take care of children, which they are not. They do not have a choice any more than a schitzophrenic person has a choice not to hallucinate. Wrap your head around that. When people reach a point in their lives that they absolutely cannot cope with, they spiral out of control.

Some of these people are introduced to a substance that changes their bain state (i.e. being "drunk" "high" whatever) which allows them to escape the experience of their lives. Underscore "experience", because even though the problems don't go away, the user doesn't have to experience the problems. Once the user has had this experience, they want it again. Once they start using over and over, the addiction self-perpetuates. When someone is behaving as though they need the drug to deal with existence, their brain will start to believe it. When someone has an unshakeable conviction that they NEED a substance to deal with existence, it doesnt matter if they're "right" or "wrong" they cannot make a choice NOT to use it.

You NEED food to live, can you make a decision to live without ever eating food? This is how an addict feels. If you don't understand this you'll never understand addiction. Just know this, AA has worked for millions people, believe it or not. Some people don't get it right away, but everyone is different. The success rate is high enough to prove that it works.

Addiction is a psychological disease. Addicts, like myself and millions of others, suffer from a complex disease that inhibits rational thinking. No matter how much an addict regrets his decision and knows that it is wrong, telling an addict not to use is like telling a Schizophrenic person to live in the real world or telling a person with Tourette's not to twitch.

A meth addict may not "want" to do meth, but still feels dependent on it. Addiction makes people miserable. At first, addicts will deny that their addiction is what is make them miserable. But when they realize that they are miserable when they do not have something, they make the connection that it would be better not to have that thing in their lives. Even then, they can't stop. You think people choose to be miserable?

AA and NA works for a lot of people who thought they would never be able to stop using. Its been empirically proven, why would you hate on something that works for people?

I so totally agree with you. There are many ways to skin a cat. XA groups are like a cult. For example, it is irrational that if I am a heroin addict, that I can never have a drink of alcohol for the rest of my life. I have never had a problem with alcohol and nor do I particularly enjoy it. But NA says that I must abstain from all potentially addictive behaviours. Not all addicts are addicted to everything out there. People tend to gravitate towards drugs that give them a particular sensation, i.e. you tend to like uppers more than downers or vice versa. As for their, "I have no personal control so I must submit to a higher power": what a load of BS. Tapering down works better than cold turkey anyway. The control is within, not without. You just have to find it, gradually.
The problem is, what else is there? I still go to these groups occasionally, and I take what I like and discard the rest. But you can't go to NA for the rest of your life because it links you to the drug culture forever. You have to graduate sometime. It's not like AA; people in AA don't hook you up with a contact to buy alcohol from. NA can be dangerous because there are some people who go there to solicit customers.

As a recovering heroin addict who is currently in a treatment program, I can tell you that when you are stooped in your addiction you are almost powerless. My bad decisions led me to that point, but by the time I got there it was horrible. I did so many things I didn't want to do, so many things I hated. But I needed heroin. Not to be high, but just to feel ok. No matter how many times I told myself I needed to quit, no matter how much I hated myself and wanted to kill myself, I could not stop. Not until I was locked up in a treatment program.

That being said, what they mean when they say "we are powerless" is when we are using these drugs we do horrible things. We don't think about them, don't weigh out the options, don't even want to do them, but we do. Whether you believe that is truly powerlessness or not, that is the same truth for every true addict. When we are clean from these drugs, this is when we gain the power to choose to not use again. To choose to not steal and lie.

I also hate the twelve steps an twelve step meetings. But they help more people get sober than anything else does.

People got power. Ask Aladeen.
..... i need to start responding seriously.