Is it normal to have these views on feminism

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So, I have a friend who is a lesbian and I really respect her for admitting who she is, but recently she has become a feminist and has decided not to shave her legs for months because she believes in equal rights and what not. Since I have found out about this, it has got me thinking about feminism and I have to say that I disagree with it. I can understand the concept of not shaving her legs as she thinks it is sexist that a girl should be scrutinised for having hairy legs. However, if you are going to make shaving legs an equal right for both genders, then where does it stop? Women will cut their hair short, wear male clothing, get a sex change, grow a beard? And before you know it, we've got a world full of men! So, when a lesbian is complaining that she can't get a girlfriend, I'm sorry but it's your own fault! I can't understand why a lesbian, who stating the obvious is into girls, would want to fight for a world full of men! I'm still trying to get my head around it. These things that some people may view as 'sexist' are what defines us as women. Also, if you want to look like a man, then expect to be treated like a man. This means you'll lose all your privileges of being a woman. Forget about 'ladies first' and a man giving up his seat for you on the bus. It's not going to happen. So, with all of this in mind, would you really want to live in a world with equal rights? Post your ideas below!

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Based on 39 votes (23 yes)
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Comments ( 32 )
  • Ellenna
    9 years ago

    One of the hardest things about being a feminist is having to repeatedly explain that there is not one feminism, but many, for example: Socialist Feminists, Anarchist Feminists, Middle Class Feminists, Lesbian Feminists, Lesbian Separatist Feminists, Black Feminists, Womanists, Radical Feminists, Women's Liberationists and even Effeminists (male feminists) and lots and lots more, including plenty I'm sure I've never heard of.

    Feminism isn't a political party or an actual organisation which makes rules for everyone else, although the pronouncements of some hardline feminists may sound like that, not to mention the fact that the media has consistently distorted and misrepresented feminism, the most obvious example of which is the bra burning myth - it never happened, people, that story was totally invented by a (woman) journalist who admitted it years later, but did the mass media report that?

    On principle, I haven't shaved my legs or armpits for more than 35 years after my alleged non-shaving was made an issue in a child custody case to try and prove that I was a "bad mother": hopefully, thanks to feminism, such sexist bullshit wouldn't now be allowed in a courtroom, but we can't relax sisters, remember that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance!

    Fists raised and banners flying we march onward arm in arm to victory .... or in my case hobble .....slowly .... slowly ...... very very very s l o w l y

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  • KeddersPrincess
    11 years ago

    Acually, I agree with her. Women (as everyone) should be allowed to do what we want. Just because some women chose not to shave or to cut there hair and dress like a man doesn't mean ALL women will do it. I'm kind of like her. I heterosexual, but I don't necissarily follow through on the "women should be delicate creatures" bit. I don't shave my legs when I don't want to. I never wear make-up. I do what I want if it makes me feel comfortable. I very much admire your friend for the way she is.

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  • dom180
    11 years ago

    "Where does it stop? Women will cut their hair short, wear male clothing, get a sex change, grow a beard? And before you know it, we've got a world full of men!"

    Why is it a bad thing that women are doing what they want with their lives? Looking like a man does not make you a man; only a sex change makes a woman into a man. A sex change is nothing to do with feminism; it's about having the same rights as a man, not becoming a man. What society wants women to be is NOT what defines a woman as a woman.

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  • dappled
    11 years ago

    Feminism is more prevalent amongst gay women than straight women because straight women, to an extent, have to put up with certain male behaviours in order to attract a mate. That isn't to say all men should be the model of what women want, because men put up with certain things about women too. But there is tolerance and there is fairness. Being tolerant of something shouldn't mean it's okay to be treated unfairly.

    As for the leg issue, I disagree with your friend. I don't think it's sexist to scrutinize someone for having hairy legs. The natural state of affairs is for both men and women to have hairy legs. If 95% of a gender choose to do change the way their body naturally is, people can't be judged for noticing the 5% who don't. It's not a sexist issue. Men aren't making women shave their legs. Well, not directly anyway.

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    • shade_ilmaendu
      11 years ago

      It's one thing to notice that a person is doing something different, but another thing to say anyone who prefers their body natural is wrong or deserves to be singled out and ostracized.

      And trust me hun, men *and* women encourage that people follow social norms from a very early age. When I went to 6th grade I wasn't allowed to shave yet, mom wouldn't let me. I got singled out by the school, made fun of, called a man... didn't make friends for a little while. Taught me right away to keep my head down, not that I listen anymore.

      And to the OP, since I'm already commenting under Dappled, there is nothing masculine about having hairy legs. You know what's really funny, is that all women naturally have body hair. It's a sign of sexual maturity in all mammals, male and female. The world isn't suddenly going to turn into men if women start allowing their bodies to be natural.

      But that's just proof how kids get socialization beat into them, so they don't even know the truth about a biological fact.

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      • mrsxsalvatore
        11 years ago

        I don't have an issue with women choosing to be natural and having hairy legs. My issues are the intentions behind it. Also, many of you have labelled me as stupid and that I don't know what I'm talking about, when actually I do. I'm not so ignorant that I didn't know nature intended us to have body hair. My question is why. Why would she choose to take away something which separates women from men? Shaving legs isn't something a modern thing, and for some reason, this tradition has been claimed as a sexist act against women? I understand that the minority of women who choose not to shave their legs have chose this as it is their preference and how they feel most comfortable. However, the majority of people choose not to shave their legs as a feminist act. The only message I was trying to get across was shouldn't people consider the outcomes? They way this generation is going, we will soon be living in a world full of men. Equal rights will have won, but at what cost? Women having complete equal rights as men means that women will lose the essence of who they truly are. You people may disagree with me and tell me that I am basing my opinions on extreme outcomes which are unlikely to occur, but in hindsight you know I'm right.

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        • shade_ilmaendu
          11 years ago

          Wellp, I'm not beating a dead horse. Have a good life.

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          • mrsxsalvatore
            11 years ago

            Can't stand someone having a different opinion?

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            • shade_ilmaendu
              11 years ago

              You interpret everything rather hostily. I'm not going to argue with someone who has a different opinion because it's fine to disagree.

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  • Gasmasker
    11 years ago

    Just because a woman wants equality does not mean that she wants to be a man. I want to chuck the idea of "gender roles" out a window off a cliff into the ocean with weights tied to its ankles.

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  • Allistalla
    11 years ago

    Excactly what is wrong with women who wear mens clothing and cut thier hair short ? most women I know like short hair and have short hiar ? or like wearing ties and mens cloth ? Also just becuase you are not super prissy does not mean you are not a chick anymore Gosh thats so rude . Also alot of girls look cute and still very girly with short hiar . I think women look alot cuter in boys cloth and short hiar and tomboy is a cute style on women .

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  • [Old Memory]
    11 years ago

    "I believe in equal rights, so I'm not going to shave my legs"...Strong woman. She's fighting the power, everyone knows society forces women to shave their legs...(sarcasm)

    My God, you hit the nail on the head. You actually see the part in which if women want to be treated like men, then they have to give up the priveleges of being a woman. That's so rare for someone to say on here, and I respect you for saying that.

    Something I am actually wondering though, because I always notice this about women that say they don't shave their legs to "go against the man", but makeup is something women use that men don't but I never see them give up that...

    Anyway, good post, I agree with what you said completely.

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    • Ellenna
      9 years ago

      You seriously never see women giving up makeup? Which planet do you live on? And where are all these "privileges" women have? Like less pay, less property, less power worldwide?

      If you mean being given a seat or doors being held open, I haven't seen a seat being given up to a woman on public transport for years and I am strong enough to hold doors open thank you, both for myself and whoever happens to be following me, including men.

      The original poster seems very young or from a time warp back to the 50's and HOORAY did I just work out all by myself what the initials OP stand for? Oh yippee some of us females have brains too ..

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      • [Old Memory]
        9 years ago

        Despite what I said was posted years ago, I'll correct myself and make myself more clear from what I assume I meant back then. I generally don't see women not wear makeup in public. Obviously I have seen some do so, however not most.

        I don't get what the rest of your comment is in response to if you want to elaborate as to which parts of my comments you are addressing.

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    • VioletTrees
      11 years ago

      The idea is that women shouldn't be expected to shave our legs if we don't want to, not that it's wrong to shave your legs. There are a few feminists who are against shaving your legs at all, but they're really fringe, and not many people agree with them.

      Also, a lot of women don't wear makeup, and I've definitely talked to feminists who stopped using makeup because they realised they were only doing it because they felt like they were expected to.

      As a feminist, I think it should be completely acceptable for men to wear makeup, by the way.

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      • [Old Memory]
        11 years ago

        We don't expect you to shave your legs, we preffer it, but nobody expects them to. We don't expect women to shave their legs, we preffer it, so women shouldn't expect men to like women that don't shave their legs. Women do it because men preffer it, not because they are forced to. If they don't shave their legs, and a man preffers shaven legs, then he isn't expected to still like her as much as women that shave their legs.

        Obviously some feminists and women in general don't wear makeup, but I have only seen one person in my experience in my life that doesn't wear makeup, and that was only because she looked very bad in it.

        They aren't expected to do it, but men preffer it, that doesn't mean we force it. Men might expect women to do that if women want to attract males, just like a woman would expect a man to shave his unshaven, very long beard if he was trying to find a woman.

        I think men should be able to aswell, they used to afterall, well royals did anyway.

        I am starting to think you are a feminist that is actually about real equality instead of just special treatment, which I respect and I am glad such a person is here. Although, and I am only saying this because of recent debates with people, I have given people too much credit before observing them for long. At the moment, I like you and your contributions, but I understand that there is a possibility I might be misjudging you.

        Either way, so far you are someone I can respect.

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        • VioletTrees
          11 years ago

          Thanks, I think.

          Also, I think you're sort of missing my point about women shaving our legs. The problem, as I see it, isn't that men expect women to shave our legs, it's that PEOPLE expect it. Society as a whole expects it. I don't have a problem with men preferring shaved legs, but I do have a problem with people (especially strangers) giving women who don't shave their legs a hard time (this is a thing that happens).

          I think that this is part of a larger problem, which is that women are expected to put a lot of time into being beautiful. I don't know if you've heard of the beauty myth. The beauty myth is the idea in our society that a woman must be beautiful to be valuable. An unattractive man can be the CEO of a large corporation or run for public office, and nobody cares that he's unattractive. But when a woman does those things, people talk about her looks constantly. A woman can be a supreme court justice, for god's sake, and people will still comment on how attractive or unattractive she is. People are disgusted by unattractive women in a way I haven't really seen people react to men, even when the looks of the woman in question are completely irrelevant.

          Concerning men, I absolutely do think that men are hurt by gender equality. In most cases, though, I think it's a matter of society treating femininity as inherently weaker or less valuable than masculinity. This is why it's considered ok for a woman to do some traditionally masculine things (getting a job as an engineer, wearing pants, playing sports, etc), but if a man does traditionally feminine things (sewing, working with children, ballet, etc), people think there must be something wrong with him, or he must be weak.

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          • VioletTrees
            11 years ago

            I meant to type "men are hurt by gender INEQUALITY". Sorry about that.

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          • [Old Memory]
            11 years ago

            I don't see it like that. We think it's more feminine to do it, and men like women to do it, so they may want them to and preffer it but not expect them to do it. They might think of it being weird and different from other females, but I still don't think they are expected to.
            Well, I haven't seen anyone give a woman a hard time for it, but I think the exact same thing would happen to a man that wouldn't shave their face, and I think it would actually be far worse in that case since you don't have clothing to cover your face.

            I have heard it, but I dissagree with it. We see just as much male eye candy on TV, just as much male designer clothing, hair products and styles that males are to adopt. There are things like that for men to, that they have to be a protector. If a man runs away and lets a woman be abused by a stranger, even if the female is a stranger, he is seen as less of a man for not sticking his neck out, but nobody cares or expects women to do that for a male in trouble.

            Personally, If the beauty myth is true, I would hold the female gender accountable just as much. They focus their whole time, even when they don't need to, to look beautiful and buy things to make them more beautiful, even when their average appearance is fine. If this is to change, women have to stop worrying about appearance and lower it down to the level that males view their appearance. Ofcourse, this could lead to males not finding females as attractive as they were before, but that is because instead of society (women involved) allowing natural appearance to stay the way it is, we have given access to ways to make people look better, and women swarm around for those things. Obviously people aren't going to stop people from saying if someone is pretty or not, and I personally have not seen someone say something along the lines of "She can't be a good leader, she isn't pretty enough".

            And I agree with the last part.

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            • VioletTrees
              11 years ago

              Oh shit, I did not mean to type "men are hurt by gender equality". I meant "men are hurt by gender INEQUALITY." Men being expected to be "protectors" is part of that. How much a person should be expected to help should be a matter of their strength and ability to help, not a matter of their gender identity, and their gender shouldn't be called into question based on those actions.

              "She can't be a good leader, she isn't pretty enough" isn't what I'm talking about when I say people talk about the attractiveness of women even when it's not relevant. I'm talking more about the fact that people bring it up even when it's a complete non sequitur. It's not that people shouldn't ever talk about attractiveness, but I think it's telling that they'll bring up the appearance of a female supreme court justice far more often than a male one, for instance.

              Of course women perpetuate the beauty myth as well as men. When I say "society", I don't mean "men". It seems like you bring up "women are responsible too!" a lot, even when I haven't said anything to contradict that. What is that about?

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    • mrsxsalvatore
      11 years ago

      Thank you for your comment! You're the only person who seems to understand where I am coming from. I don't see anything wrong with women preferring their hair short, or even not shaving their legs for that matter, but it did make me wonder about the whole physics of it.

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  • VioletTrees
    11 years ago

    If she's more comfortable not shaving her legs, leave her alone about it. If she's pressuring you not to shave your legs, then that's different.

    Also, it doesn't seem like you know very much about feminism at all. Feminists are not necessarily transmen.

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    • mrsxsalvatore
      11 years ago

      Well, actually I do know a lot about feminism. And I have left my friend alone about it and haven't said anything to her about it, as it's none of my business and I respect her reasons for not shaving her legs, but it did get me wondering about 'what if?' and my ideas about the outcomes. That doesn't make me an anti feminist like you people are insinuating, we all have different views.

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      • VioletTrees
        11 years ago

        Ok, that's good to know. I'm sorry for assuming.

        I think it's important to recognise that there are lots of feminists (like me!) who shave our legs and wear makeup and all that jazz. There are some feminists who see those things as chains of the patriarchy or something, but I think feminism stops making sense when it starts making its own rules about what women are allowed to do to be feminists (like you must not wear makeup, or you must not be a homemaker).

        I guess what I'm trying to get at is that most modern feminists are fine with women who what to do traditionally feminine things, and many of us wear dresses and stuff like that. We just don't think women should feel like they HAVE to do those things, or like they're only valuable if they fit a narrow standard of beauty. I don't think your what if scenario would ever happen, because a lot of women like doing feminine things, and being a feminist doesn't have to override that.

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        • mrsxsalvatore
          11 years ago

          That makes sense! I suppose it is a matter of personal choice, and how feminists decide to represent gender equality. Her way of representing feminism is to dress like a male and to not shave her legs, not just because she is making a point but because she feels comfortable that way. I didn't thoroughly understand the point of it before, but your comments have enlightened me!

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  • [Old Memory]
    11 years ago

    "but recently she has become a feminist and has decided not to shave her legs for months because she believes in equal rights and what not"

    That's not a feminist, that's just disgusting..........oh wait, they're the same thing.

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