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An internet friend of mine who lives in Texas is upset that an elementary school in his hometown was shot up and small children were killed. He's still really upset.
What's the best way to prevent people from shooting up places? And why pick a place with small children? Children deserve the right to breathe like everyone else.
Legal gun owners commit less than a fifth of gun crime, it isn't even a gun issue it's a mental health issue and a black market issue. Criminals don't follow laws if you ban guns then you end up with an even bigger black market resulting in armed criminals and a disarmed populace who can't defend thrmselves from criminals, or the government should the need ever arise. We also need guns to defend ourselves because police are unreliable, in eight plus minutes the crime has already been commited and the criminal has gotten away.
I don’t disagree with what you are saying but “less than a fifth” if you mean less than 1/5, is not really an impressive number, that’s still a lot.
Almost every adult in Yemen and Lebanon has an illegal firearm. This still does not happen there. I have 18 firearms, many illegal, I have purchased illegal firearms abroad and at home. I also saw a post a while ago on social media that showed an American mainstream (so they said) magazine on a shelf that said on the cover that the magazine sold “untraceable” guns.
I think this is predominantly a mental health issue. Lock them up in mental asylums, that’s what we do, the ones that aren’t visited by family are euthanized. There’s a link between people like this, you just aren’t allowed to talk about it.
True but did you know a good number of black market guns were gotten legitimately even this shooter got his guns legitimately
Even if you took away his guns someone so fucked up that could kill innocent kids will just plot out another way of killing people.
2016, Nice, France that guy killed 86 people and injured 458 others with a truck. That's more than any mass shooting here in America. There are fucked up people out there who mean the rest of us harm.
But this isn't just happening in schools. It's happening in churches, grocery stores, music venues. You cannot put up walls around everything. And the gun lobby needs to stop freaking out about a few people being banned from having guns and walk a little towards the middle to find a solution. What is the real issue here? Is it the gun, or is it how fucking unstable and irrational some people are.
But if someone wants a gun they can aquire the gun (mostly illegally) felons dont have to abide by firearm restrictions they already dont care about committing crimes.
Why not open up to the public the ability to defend themselves? A gun free zone just screams "everyone here is unarmed" mass shooters are cowards they will attack areas were the easiest targets could be found. Walls wont work but allowing regular people to conceal carry makes sense.
Some people want the fucked up fame. If it's a 1 in a million type of personality type there 350+ (-1) of them in america.
Not to sound pessimistic but theres no practical thing to do in this instance. One side wants more protections via removing the ability of law abiding citizens to protect themselves while actual criminals keep theirs. On the other side its wanting to double down and increase the amount of weapons that non criminal people can have access to which may or may not solve the problem.
Even if you did the impossible and made it so guns are one hundred percent impossible to aquire then they would just start doing mass stabbings, acid attacks, running crowds over with trucks, even hammer and screwdriver attacks it's not a gun issue it's a mental health issue.
It's not just a mental issue like weirdguy said these mass shooter kids often come from broken homes. The most recent one lived with his grandmother that dosent imply a stable upbringing.
It's not a one issue problem. It's a multifaceted issue that there isnt a blanket solution for something politicians try to strive for.
I'm remaining realistic. It will continue to happen and theres not a lot of practical solutions to "fix" it. So you have to look beyond the horrible consequences for doing nothing in favor of not making other situations worse because of the "fix"
I lean more towards arming and training the populace not out of the NRA position of a good guy with a gun but because of the practicalities of having a population more at ease in using weapons for self defense outweighing the repercussions of potentially training the wrong people.
Also morbidly if the victims were adults more of them would of survived. Kids cant lose as much blood as adults can.
If it prevents one tragedy, isn't that a step in the right direction? I don't think that requiring mental health checks will limit anyone's right to defend themselves. The crimes are being committed by a different level of criminal. The kind that will raise red flags if there was some kind scrutiny. But everyone takes it so personally. Boo fucking hoo, you have to pass a test to get a gun. We take the right to drive away from people all the time. The constitution was written back when these crazy people were literally locked up in institutions and forgotten about. We don't do that now, now we give them guns? It seems that all this debate does is create vigilantis.
Stopping one tragedy isnt a step in the right direction if it will directly cause more tragedy.
People not being able to defend themselves by criminals who dont follow the law anyway.
Making guns or modifications illegal doesnt make them impossible to aquire.
Are these tragedies worth making innocent people give up the right to defend themselves? If you have a mental condition does that completely exempt you from possibly protecting yourself. Where do you draw the mental illness line? I wouldnt want to have my ability to own weapons taken away because a doctor said I had a condition that I could take meds for.
You honestly believe that it's the guns themselves are the problem. The key point here is that it's a culture problem not a gun problem. You cant fix culture problems with laws.
They arent asking for anything reasonable. Its all lip service. This guy legally bought these guns. No liberal suggested law could have kept these guns from him.
The liberals often claim that the gun lobbyists are "fighting background checks" as if there isnt already background checks and computer systems in place to make ppl pop in the system. If you are in the system as being mental you can not walk out of a gun store with a gun. It takes 10 minutes for your paperwork to go through the FBI database to clear you to buy. This is the FBI failing to put this guy in the system regardless of everyone in town knowing he was mental. The liberals offer no real solution but always blame this on the gun lobbyists.
I'm strong pro second amendement and even I've got to admit making guns illegal would be the best way to do it. But Benjamin Franklin once said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
I dont want to sound like im taking advantage of it to spread my little pro family narrative but do any of these school shooters not come from a broken home? Seems like the one thing they all have in common. They were all raised by a single mom or grandparents or something like this and they also usually all were picked on and socially awkward. I think if we had better guidance counselors who could spot these kids with these issues and maybe bring the community together to help these kids. It can make a big difference in a kids life if there's someone in his life whos older that can be like a mentor.
Alot of times the kids in the schools and the guidance counselors know theres something wrong with these kids and often know they could be dangerous but the guidance counselors are just there for a paycheck.
What are they supposed to do if the kid seems like a danger? How are they supposed to help? The most a "guidance counselor" can do is provide suggestions.
They could get more involved in the kids life. For example go to his birthday parties and shit, call him up from time to time, ask him how things are going. Just be a normal mentor figure that cares about them. The community should come together more and try to help these kids and not just allow them to go down a weird rabbit hole, be bullied, not have anyone to talk to. You can usually spot these ppl from a mile away. It sounds cheesy i know but it honestly makes a huge difference. There's alot of teachers that have made big impacts on peoples lives.
They are mandated reporters here if they talk about wanting to hurt themselves or hint at wanting to hurt people they have to tell the police.
In that case, though, a kid would have to directly state such a thing. There is nothing they can do about a child who simply "could be dangerous".
They don't even have to directly say it they only have to just slightly hint at it and that's enough to get investigated. It's not perfect but it's the best that can be done in this particular case.
They still have to do something. The can't do anything for, for example, some kid who just who just acts depressed. If a kid never says anything to the guidance counselor, nothing can be done. And, of course, the kid can always just lie. Someone who actually wants to shoot people is going to go out of the way to make it seem like they don't want to shoot people.
How was this guy able to enter the school???
We need to install Mantrap doors. You pass thru one door which closes behind you before the next one opens. If the person is a problem they are locked in.
So make the bullet proof glass. So much of the Covid relief money that has gone to schools has remained unspent. They could put it towards better security.
You dont need bullet proof you need a chain linked security gate that can be deployed on said nice windows. Sure you can shoot through them but after the first few shots anyone who would be in danger would get the fuck out of sight. And the perpetrator would be like a caged animal.
My idea would be an auto locking doors for the classrooms and an emergency shelter system perhaps on the bathrooms? <20 seconds to get to a room before a total shutdown? Contain the threat and pray for those who were left in the open? Save the majority for the cost of stranding a minority.
I'm genuinely not sure there is a solution in the US. At least not one that would get bipartisan support.
It would be impossible to remove guns from the nation. At best it would create a blackmarket for them and only criminals/the government would have firearms. At worst, you have civil war when angry gun owners have their doors knocked on by the government to confiscate the guns.
The other solutions are unlikely to receive bipartisan support. Whether it be requiring psychiatric evaluations for gun ownership or requiring teachers to keep a firearm in the classroom; not everyone will be okay with any one solution.
It would VERY likely lead to a civil war.
People outside of the USA need to understand that gun culture is literally ingrained into the backbone of this countries founding. Before you go into a speal about how muskets don't equal ar15s I would like to remind you that a private person could own a motherfucking cannon and mortar. Those simple artillery peices could do WAY more damage than a modern ar15.
Now do I think regular people should get rocket launchers or grenade launchers? Hell no. But this is only circumvented by the fact that these military installations are often surrounded by civilian areas. Civil war happens those will become the little Bastilles of america to arm the revolution.
It is simply the threat of having a good portion of your population being armed to contest making super radical changes. Removal of said power can only be taken by the american people as the prelude to radical governmental change skewed towards fascistic power. That would be intimidated otherwise by said armed populace.
Also the only single fire muskets arguement fails as the founding fathers absolutely knew about repeated fire rifles. In 1777 Joseph Belton created a flintflock musket that was capable of firing sixteen shots in twenty seconds he made contact with congress and they ordered one hundred copies of his gun. There was a gun with multiple Chambers called the staplin revolver created all the way in 1597. There was a hand rotated revolver with anywhere in between three to seven barrels called the pepperbox that was widely available by the 1780's. There was a gun called a duckfoot pistol that had four barrels that fired a volley of bullets through all barrels at once from 1780. There was a seven barreled Nock gun from 1780 Etc. Etc.
Fuck.
As fucked up as it sound if this took place at an area with adults more of them would have survived their wounds.
Never forget that these psychopaths are cowards. Picking on helpless targets in vulnerable areas. Zero gun areas is just a big ol sign that reads everyone is unarmed.
There were multiple armed police officers that eventually shot and killed him. They just weren’t good enough - they never are.
When punishment is only done on reaction there will always be devastation.
It feels inappropriate for me to have any opinion on this at all. So I’m not going to get into this with you, I’m just telling you that the “solution” to this unique problem is impossible to find. And the pro-gun vs anti-gun debate isn’t enough.
That's the thing there is no palatable solution to it. I just want to minimize worse decisions hoping to correct a problem that may or may not even solvable.
It wasnt that the officers weren't good enough they were it just took them too long to get there. Which isnt their fault as they got there as fast as physically possible. Decreasing the time to get there isnt practical. Increasing the time it will take to cause great casualties probably will be the most effective solutions.
Auto locking doors for the classrooms and an emergency shelter system perhaps on the bathrooms? 20 seconds to get to a room before a total shutdown? Contain the threat and pray for those who were left in the open? Save the majority for the cost of stranding a minority.
Actually that solution might be the most practical of them all.
It seems that many have been desensitized away from a humane response to devastating events. 19 children dead and people rush to the internet to see who they can blame, what group they can dog on, trying to make “gotcha’s”. It’s horrifying.
There’s a death of morality in America and it’s almost too hard to look at sometimes. I see American Gen Z simply saying “We’re used to it” and I find that horrifying.
I’m not American, I won’t pretend to confidently understand. It’s just all very, very, sad. In a selfish moment I would wish I had less ties to the US so I could be blissfully ignorant. I just hope you and your people can recover somehow.
Hearing reports the officers confronted the gunman outside and refused to go inside for fear for their lives. Absolute fucking cowards. They should be put to death.
I'm sorry about the situation for all involved, however the statement about the officer's skill has to be questioned.
From the information I've heard and read 3 officers engaged him before he got access to the school one resource officer assigned to the school was the first he exchanged fire but shooter got him first then the first two responding officers engaged and exchanged fire both getting wounded but not wounding him. He supposedly had on a vest but it had no armor in it. First officer's have no business engaging a semi auto rifle with hand guns they need to be equipped with something better for long range accuracy. Then they need to hit their target first shot!
This thing took 35 minutes, if you can't end it in less than ten minutes then anything the shooter did in the first 5 to 10 minutes like taking over a classroom or any hostages are sacrificial lambs.
Police need to be armed and have the required protective equipment to immediately engage not wait and plan. The plan should be in place months before an event.
I agree broken homes, school entry fortification, even looking at when the current young generation is mature enough to own a gun or be considered an adult
There was a time when 15 year olds were expected to help provide and care for family. Today I have a thirty YO that still acts 17 or 18 and barely have their life together.
More investment in schools to try to help identify troubled kids. Tighter security at schools. A close examination at society itself to see why this keeps happening here more than any other place in the world. Much tougher guns laws to try and keep guns out of the hands of deranged individuals would help.
I agree with everything except the gun law part. This guy purchased the guns legally and passed a background check. The problem we see with gun control is it takes the guns out of the hands of the civilians and the criminals dont obey gun laws. Usually violent crime goes up when they ban them actually. Look at Chicago for example. No one has a gun to shoot criminals and they run wild robbing ppl and going nuts. Theres so many guns in America you'll always be able to get one. But civilians wont break gun laws but criminals will.
You know I would have used to agree with you on that. I don't anymore. I'm an avid sportsman. I have quite a few guns so I'm not against people owning them. I just think it should be much tougher to be able to purchase them to begin with. Along with a lengthy sentence for having one without the proper requirements. And yes I get the whole guns don't kill people and those laws don't matter to criminals cause they'll just get them anyway blah blah blah. But our solution can't be we just do nothing. Although we'd never know, if tougher gun laws stopped one mass shooter or one got busted by the cops making an illegal purchase it would be worth the extra hassle to me.
When somone is run down by a vehicle no one blames the car they blame the person so why when someone is shot is it all of sudden the gun's fault? America was born out of resisting an oppressive government using guns. Countries that dont have the same history and conception just can't understand why Americans value guns so much. Guns are for resisting the government should it ever become tyrannical again, something that is impossible to do without guns.
Yeah but the guns sole purpose is to kill, the cars sole purpose is transportation
Simply not true. The guns purpose is to protect citizens from the government. They are also used for aquiring food (hunting), as a hobby shooting targets like clay bird. They are used in the olympics. Flare guns are used to signal distress and guns using blanks are used to signal the start of a sporting event (both can easily kill people), an armed populace is a massive deterant to land invasions from other countries and to deter robbery, collectors purchase both antique and functional guns. Guns are not inherently a weapon they are a tool that just so happens to be able to kill just like a hammer, screwdriver, saw, scythe, wrenches, kitchen knives etc. are tools that happen to be able to kill people. Cars are also used in war such as Jeeps, Humvees, and Toyota Rangers.
I take your point, only through looking at American culture through an American perspective. It’s very hard from the outside. I would just like to politely dispute the comparison you made at the base of your argument, but I’m not dismissing your argument or anything like that, just so we’re clear.
Cars are used in war, yes, for transportation. Boil it down. Maybe sole was the wrong word I used, in retrospect. A better word is probably main.
An unjust killing is a misuse of a firearm. They are not intended to kill unjustly. The same is true for a vehicle; vehicles are not intended to be used for unjust killing. The same is true also for knives and swords, and every other object one could use to kill another. None of them are intended to be used for unjust killings.
Ok, I think you’ve taken this and expanded on it, that’s ok, it’s a hot debate, emotions are high, and it’s worth breaking down. But for clarity’s sake, I am only answering the posters leading question:
“When somone is run down by a vehicle no one blames the car they blame the person so why when someone is shot is it all of sudden the gun's fault?”
It’s a weapon being used as a weapon, the other case is a method of transportation being used as a weapon. I’m only trying to highlight why I think theres a difference in blame there between the two that people make, and I never said whether I personally agree with that or not, so take note of that.
oh i can have guns where i live, we're just not as deranged and batshit insane like most americans are. there needs to be stricter laws to who can own a gun, more background checks and tests instead of walking into a fucking walmart like yall crazy asses and buying a gun from there while also doing the daily grocery shopping. guns are way too easily accessible in america
It's not just about guns. That's too simple of a problem for a complex situation. its a cultural problem without a common solution. Blaming guns will get you nowhere.
Blanket solutions wont solve either. America is just one big entanglement of diversity and individuality. The only thing we all have in common is that we are americans.
Sure other cultures can pull off being in unanimous agreement but if you look at how america even governs itself it's clear to see we disagree on everything. It's good for stability but it lacks in quick reactions.
Problem is a lot of these "solution bills" add a whole lot more bullshit in them than is required to do said solution. That's why it garners hate from the other side or the solution goes directly against the policies of the opposition.
Republicans dont want dead kids
Democrats dont want dead kids
But the solution for less dead kids isnt banning guns or any blanked solution paraded by politicians that hope for simple answers for a complex issue.
I find it abhorrent to use said tragedies as a catalyst for change. As it requires a reactionary approach to the problem rather than a pragmatic approach to solving the underlying issues.
i don't think guns should be completely banned, i think there should just be more restrictions and harder to get like more tests or exams to pass so it's more less likely for crazy people to get their hands on a gun. compared to other countries i feel like getting a gun is way too easy in america and should be more limited
But here's the thing it's not about buying the gun legally. Lots of these criminals already aquire them illegally. Or like the Las Vegas shooter had a completely clean record yet still went on to kill like 60 people.
You cannot account for when people snap. If not a gun than how about a truck? Like the wisconsin parade motherfucker who mowed down children and elderly in a car?
It's not about guns it's about how to react to someone who will try to kill as many people as physically possible with whatever means they have legal or illegally gained.
We live in a world were you can make poison gas in a morning a bomb in the afternoon and makeshift armor by the time you go to sleep for your big day. Completely under the radar of anyone since what you bought was 100% legal and mundane.
idk what's wrong with you americans nowhere else little kids go to school worrying if they might be shot that day or parents having to teach their kids what to do during a school lockdown if there's a shooter in the school.
nowhere else school shootings happen compared to how frequent in america, and yet most of you are just going to sit there ignoring the problem and saying "thoughts and prayers" as if that would ever do anything to help. how common school shootings occur in america is just insane compared to any other country. enjoy your "freedom" while little children's bodies are filled with bullet holes and left to bleed out in school hallways.
Everywhere else just has stabbings, instead. It's just replacing one violent crime with another, since violent crimes are inevitable.
not to the frequency of shootings in america as well as how many people end up dead compared to stabbings which is a much less amount
Sure, fewer people die when the weapons used are inferior. Back in the days of musket warfare, fewer people died, but that doesn't mean that restricting people to only possessing outdated weaponry actually fixes any problems. When the person who took the time to build his own firearm (a task that isn't actually that hard) comes busting down your door, I don't think your knife is necessarily going to help you much.
I don’t even know.
The Mass Shooting culture of America is insane and devastating. I’m pro-gun but I don’t think I can be pro-gun for America. It’s horrible what happens there. I don’t have any idea on what would help, it’s all just very upsetting and I’m so sorry to everyone who was effected and everyone who fears such things happening to them or their loved ones.
19 kids and a Teacher. Jesus Christ.
I'm a new Zealander so the way I see it is heavily restricted gun use and only having a license to carry for hunting purposes. US citizens should only carry stun gun or tasers for self defense. Less of a death toll and without the death factor it will be less appealing to those shooters. Also being careful over how media portrays the murderers. I've watched enough true crime to see how many wannabe Columbine shooters there are just because they crushed on them or idolize them whatever.
Also teaching a different lockdown drill for each class of students so that the shooter (usually a student) doesnt know where they all go during a lockdown unless if the student is part of a singular classrook
Eliminate gun-free zones.
Decades past America had many more guns
in proportion to the number of people than today.
There were also no gun-free zones.
All mass shooting take place in gun-free zones.
Murderers don't follow gun laws, so more laws are irrelevant.
Oh no? Who are the psychos that become cops just to carry a gun in the first place?
I am so confused as to why people are assuming a little regulation means taking away all the guns. No one is suggesting that. And I am certainly not suggesting that. It is the wildest leap of logic and stifles every conversation.
But I do agree, therapy alone won't solve the problem. But protecting children in a school that is little more than a daycare because security guards are paid more and have better hours than the teachers. All these people want to protect children but to me it sounds like lip service for god credit. They have no intention of providing a loving space for healthy growth of all children. The job of security detail has nothing to do with the kids and it becomes an objective. Keep bad people out. It's a job, anything can be on the other side of that wall.
I understand that you want to make the reasons for these crimes irrelevant. But you can't. Not without making the person responsible irrelevant too. These shooters likely felt irrelevant their whole lives. Turning a blind eye to their pain really won't solve the problem. Don't get me wrong, these people are evil and don't deserve much sympathy. But how did they get to that point?
We have forgotten how to be kind to each other. Everyone says it takes a village to raise a child. But that village has failed far too many people at this point. We can't make up for it by locking our kids in a box. What does that teach them? We need to teach them to be better than us. We need to show grace to each other even when we don't agree. It's okay if we don't see eye to eye. But it isn't okay to bully each other.
I am so un phased by this. Those kids did not deserve to die, but in a world where one of the greatest super powers can’t get a grip on addressing basic mental health for everyone, naturally the loonies are going to run amuck causing mayhem.
I don't know but al I can say is if u wanna go on a rampage and shoot people, u should target the cops and RCMP, not godamn children
It's an unrealistic goal. Schools are underfunded to begin with. Providing qualified therapists would benefit far more people. All security does is beef up someones bank account by buying that contract.
Blaming a broken home is a scapegoat. You can't blame a child for having a shitty parent. And any kind of social service is viewed as anti-American so the conversation for support goes nowhere. But there is evidence that if you catch the trauma early enough, you can help a child find healthy coping mechanisms. Sadly it is often trauma that happens when the child is a toddler and they can't process what they witnessed or experienced. It manifests as tantrums and disruptive behavior once they are put in social settings, i.e. school. These children are often unaware and have repressed these memories. It's important to address this while the brain is still developing but instead we drug them. Drug all of them!
It’s a debate that will rage till the end of time, why do people kill? What drives youth to committing heinous acts? It’s often so senseless and dumbfounding.
Availability of guns aside, as that is a hot topic and debate in America and guns are so embedded in the culture and history of that nation, what else can you do?
I think that we as all people can put effort into building community around young people. Now it’s not always young people committing these crimes, no. But a large amount of them do commit school shootings.
Alienation has never been more prevalent in our society and we’re coming out from (and are still in) the most socially isolated time, it’s very dangerous now, as people aren’t getting human connection. There’s been studies done that show a fear of intimacy in the young people today. The power of human touch is transcendent and when starved of it we lose a connectiveness.
We also need to create opportunity for young people. I’m not anti capitalist but we’re in late stage capitalism, the American dream is all but dead, there’s a gulf there between the minimum wage earners and the upper class. More and more businesses go online or ship the jobs offshore. This results in less opportunity and perhaps even more importantly, in the context of this argument, less purpose for our young people.
So what can we do? We need to get proactive in the community and that starts at grassroots level. Hire a young person to do some odd jobs around your house. Pay them in hugs (just joking). But seriously think of what you can give and through starting to do this I think we can certainly see a minimalisation in the potential of these events happening in the future. Cos right now, it’s only escalating.
The best way to prevent mass shooting is as follows:
Killing the shooter immediately if you can securely prove it was them. If they screwed up this bad then you don't owe them a goodbye to their family.
Then dispose of their remains in an undisclosed location. If the shooter killed themselves beforehand still do this.
I would think this should be incentive enough. Shooters won't be able to live long or say goodbye to their families and will be denied a decent burial.
Nothing. Crazy people be crazy and I'm not talking solely about mental health, some people are just simply evil. If not guns than through driving cars, making explosives (not that hard).
We should bring back institutionalizing the mentally Ill though. Will at least cut down on the homeless wandering mentally I'll people. But that wont solve all potential shootings.
As shitty as it is to say. Those kids lives will never be worth the right to defend yourself from a tyrannical goverment with nearly equal firepower.
Dont try to use those kids deaths as an excuse to do something you already didnt have public support for. It's sad but its unknown if banning guns would of prevented it. Since those who want to mass murder tend to find a way.