What do you think of the mrm?

[Old Memory]

6 years ago | pl

I support men's rights. I think the MRM is a decent cause that won't pick up much traction due to the culture we live in. Even when the Red-Pill documentary was made it only really gained popularity for two reasons: A feminist made it and it was considered taboo to even speak on behalf of men's issues.

I remember seeing an interview with the maker of The Red Pill documentary and the interviewer said that the reason her nor her documentary was accepted in Australia is because a woman's son was killed by a man sometime ago which made women's rights a sensitive issue. She responded basically saying that it was a boy that was killed and that it's interesting, as if to imply she noticed how a male dying became a woman's issue. The response she got was a patronizing, "is that really what you took from that?" As if noting that it was a boy, not a woman, that was the victim.

It's that type of mentality I believe contributes as to why a men's rights group just can't gain traction, no matter how many statistics and valid points they bring up, because in this culture, when it comes to issues of the sexes, only women as a sex can be unfairly treated and men can only be the perpetrators of inequality, not the victims.

For example. There was a article written on some feminist website with the title along the lines of, "Do you ever hit your man? We sure do/have", just downplaying violence against men. A member of the MRM decided to parody that article with his own calling it, "Smack a violent bitch month" or sonething....Tale a wild guess what happened?

....Some of you already figured it out, right? Yup, you guessed it. His PARODY of a feminist article belittling violence on men was taken seriously and he got blasted for it, still does, while the person who made the feminist article? Well, nothing. Nobody cares.

It also seems that the MRM takes flak for things the entire manosphere does even when the manosphere oppose each group within itself so much.

I'd also like to add that whatever people say about the MRM having bad apples, which it does, can anyone genuinely say it has more people who do worse things than those in thé feminism group? Because so many feminists have caused so much shit to innocent people yet they're still given the time of day, a lot of people in thé MRM are given no time while theyve done far less.

And nobody cares why? Because of our culture, the culture in which men's rights get laughed out of the room while women speak at the UN about how something as trivial as being told, "you suck" and comments like such is a female rights issue.

The culture where women's rights are a high priority while also believing that women are oppressed and men's issues are of extremely low priority while they are viewed as the patriarchy, the oppressors.

Yet so many peop will look you in thé eye and tell you that it all makes sense...

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factcheck

6 years ago

Yes, I can "genuinely say it has more people who do worse things than those in the feminism group." I can say that because it's true. There are a LOT more MRM bad apples than feminist bad apples. The MRM bad apples also cause a lot more problems than feminist bad apples. MRM bad apples stalk, harass, assault, and kill people. Feminist bad apples hurt people's feelings.

The other big difference is displayed right here in your comment. The dismissal of the bad apples as no big deal. The supposed "good" MRMs ignore their own bad apples. They minimize their place in the group, they minimize what they do, they defend them whenever possible. Good feminists don't do any of that. They call out their bad apples. Have you ever heard a feminist say "yeah, but there's bad apples in every group!"? Of course not. They're too busy writing books about the crises of problematic self proclaimed feminists, while no MRA ever has anything bad to say about the most prominent members of their toxic group. They just bury their head in the sand and point to bad members in other groups.

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- [Old Memory]
  
  6 years ago
  
  Could you show me cases of this happening and prove the people in mind that have done these things that are part of the MRM? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'd like to see this as I am skeptical on the amount in which you imply this happens.
  
  No, you are incorrect on saying feminists only hurt people's feelings. There have also been feminists that also get people fired for jokes, censor events, killed, are sex offenders, assaulted people, and so on.
  
  Well actually, at that huge women's march they had a speaker that they praised that had in the past taken part in kidnapping, starving, beating, and raping a gay man with objects. They praised that woman and her words, and had her as a guest speaker.
  
  I'd also be quick to point out that you say I dismiss the bad apples in the MRM while you have dismissed with certainty that the only negatives feminists have ever done is hurt the feelings of others, where as I have not dismissed such things with absolution. You're more guilty of doing what you claim I done in my initial comment than I am in that regard.
  
  Yes, I have heard feminists say there are bad apples in every group. It's a common thing to say within any and all group, sometimes a valid point.
  
  I've not visited MRM pages much, I don't care much for them, so it's possible, if not likely, there have been heinous people within the group. As you seem certain of this being true I'd like to ask if you could name me a few of the bad apples that have done one or more of the things you listed. Thanks.
  
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Shackleford96

6 years ago

What is the red pill documentary?

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- [Old Memory]
  
  6 years ago
  
  A feminist makes a documentary about the MRM. Talks to both MRAs and Feminists about the MRM and men's issues, etc.
  
  By the end of it she states that although she is unsure where her new knowledge will lead her but she states she can no longer allign herself with feminism and renounces the label.
  
  Feminists litrally tried, and I think in some places if my memory serves me right, succeeded in censoring the documentary being shown in public screenings.
  
  You should give it a watch.
  
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  - wigz
    
    6 years ago
    
    She 'claims' to have been a feminist, there's no proof of it so far. She is a filmmaker first and foremost and wants to make money and build a career in that so without proof, I'd be leery she was a real big feminist before all this.
    
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    - [Old Memory]
      
      6 years ago
      
      There's no reason to suggest she wasn't a feminist, infact she claims that it was her being a feminist that got her to find the MRM.
      
      I don't see there being any reason- to claim she wasnt a feminist. Lol.
      
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      - wigz
        
        6 years ago
        
        Money and success in filmmaking.
        
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- factcheck
  
  6 years ago
  
  Basically, MRAs paid a woman to make a movie where she pretends she was a feminist who investigated the MRM and decided not to be a feminist anymore. Just your everyday propaganda-disguised-as-a-documentary nonsense.
  
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  - [Old Memory]
    
    6 years ago
    
    This is incorrect or atleast unintentionally misrepresented.
    
    MRAs did not pay Cassie as if to imply this was an MRA project. The MRM was actually very skeptical about this as she made it clear that she was a feminist ha ing a feminist approach to the MRM. However, the MRM did not solely fund her. Cassie used public donations to fund the creating of her documentary in which there were MRAs that looked past their fears of her misrepresenting them and gavee her a chance by donating to her public donation page, as did many non-MRAs.
    
    You also seem to be under the impression that someone cannot be part of the feminist movement and them later on see it as a bad ideology when many have done just that. A notable one would be Erin Pizzey, the woman who created the first women's shelter who, in which I believe she has since passed on, God rest her soul, left the feminist ideology and seen it as a societal problem.
    
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Pseodonihm

6 years ago

I also watched The Red Pill, and I was aware of the MRM but I didn't give it much thought. I was raised to be the guy who opens the door for ladies. Protect the fairer sex. That sort of thing. So I gave the feminists their say on the MRM. But since watching the documentary, and realizing what they where trying to say on both sides I think the MRM should be given the same level of respect as the feminists movement. And I also believe the feminists need to rethink their approach to social issues that truly effect everyone.

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- factcheck
  
  6 years ago
  
  You think feminists should care about issues that truly affect everyone? Read what the person you're responding to said more closely, in the second paragraph...it's criticizing feminists for caring about a woman's son being murdered by a man. In other words, it's saying that women shouldn't care about issues that affect everyone. Feminists get slammed for only caring about women's issues, when in reality they definitely care about issues that affect everyone(they care about issues that affect men a lot more than MRAs do, for example), it just gets dismissed as trying to make it "become a women's issue" and get slammed for that too.
  
  tl;dr:
  
  MRA: feminists should care about issues that affect everyone!
  Feminist: a man murdered a boy and that's bad
  MRA: how dare you try to make a boy's murder a women's issue???
  
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  - [Old Memory]
    
    6 years ago
    
    You seem to have misrepresented me.
    
    I am not saying that the mother was not a victim, I was saying she was not the primary victim and how society looked at the woman as being the primary victim when it was the child who was murdered that was.
    
    I disagree that feminists care more about mens issues than MRAs do as they religiously protest and aim to shut down, sometimes illegally, evens about men's issues, like suicide subjects in regards to men. That coupled with terms like mansplaining, manspreading, and toxic masculinity. My observations are that the feminist idea to "helping men" is to save them from themselves and their attitudes, such as "toxic masculinity" which is to villify the average man, to say they are the problem that needs fixed when they don't need to be, they don't need to be molded into the feminist idea of a man, that they are already caring and passionate.
    
    That, from my observations, is the feminist idea of "caring about men's issues" instead of addressing their actual issues.
    
    If I may correct your tl:dr.
    
    MRA: Society viewed the mother of a boy being killed as the primary victim and when it was implied that the woman was not the primary victim, that infact the boy who lost his life was, the interviewer scoffed as if to say a boy losing his life is less important than a woman losing her child.
    
    Feminist: But it was a man that murdered the child!
    
    MRA: Yes but it was a boy that was the victim of homicide, and we should recognize that.
    
    In your analogy you misrepresent what was said. It was the non-feminist in the interview that acknowledged the man killed the boy, it was the feminist interviewer that scoffed at bringing up that the boy was the victim.
    
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CozmoWank

6 years ago

Is that like a bunch of guys in man buns complaining that their feelings are hurt by society?

Sounds like a first world problem.

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[Old Memory]

6 years ago

Not really, no. Lol. Moreso about suicide rates, unequal sentencing, the legal drugging of young boys, forced infant circumcision, lack of public funded shelters, etc, etc.

Not saying people don't complain about how they're feeling but I'd imagine it's fair to get upset by inequality, sometimes they've even been the victims of it.

Hope this helps ya understand.

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- CozmoWank
  
  6 years ago
  
  So they're another group of social justice warriors to borrow an often heard phrase. Although I dislike the term.
  
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  - [Old Memory]
    
    6 years ago
    
    No, not really. They aren't after, "social" justice, just legal justice. There's no identity politics in the MRM.
    
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    - CozmoWank
      
      6 years ago
      
      So they are another group fighting to change perceived injustices against them.
      
      Although they do identify as a men's movement fighting for issues concerning men.
      
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    - wigz
      
      6 years ago
      
      Isn't that a problem? Obviously black men have different and worse problems than white men. And any legal progress for ANY of the MRM pet issues would require examining the underlying social issues. Circumcision...cultural, mostly. Harsher sentencing, cultural AND racist since colored men have it worst. Child custody...cultural and biological, but in the end it's more about who is there with the child so why is it usually the woman? It's largely cultural and could be mitigated if we had more equal and appropriate maternity/paternity leave but often a lot of the pro-shared custody people are also against paid family leave and against child support. There is clearly a cultural obstacle to clear there.
      
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      - [Old Memory]
        
        6 years ago
        
        While I agree there are issues POC have I would not say they are as bad as certain groups exegerate on. That said, that is not to say that MOC's issues don't have a place in the MRM, however the MRM is a small and unsuccessful group that won't gain traction, trying to add more issues on their plate at the time isn't going to accomplish anything. That also said, the issues the MRM does bring up includes issues MOC are also having to live with, so it's not as if the MRM is dismissing MOC, they're just not focusing on issues exclusive to MOC but issues all men live with or are at risk of having tolive with.
        
        I agree, a lot of it does have to do with culture. That's something I've not made my mind up about because obviously culture is made by the customs and preferences of the citizens in that culture and to change the culture it would involve trying to change their customs and preferences. For example, I'm sure a large part of why women get the child more is due to the dynamics between men and women and how more often than not, a woman will want a successful man, one that can provide for her even if she's capable of providing for herself, that most (not all] would rather their man provide while they do the child care. Ofcourse, since a large part of our culture when it comes to being men is to be successful and gain female acceptance, which women like men to be able to provide for them. So that all plays out, women would moreso prefer their man to provide and men would moreso prefer to be able to keep their woman happy by providing, the stigma both men and women give stay at home fathers, for not being successful, for a woman having to provide. It basically all adds up to this difference in child custody issues.
        Now don't get me wrong, I'm not villifying women for wanting to be stay at home parents. It's their choice and how another couple run their relationship is not my business, however I believe that due to this being the general case that it's created stereotypes that even our legal system consideres to be true a lot of the time, because sadly due to our culture being made by the preferences in civvies, it's a fair representation.
        What I think would need to change there is an increase in women willing to provide but at the same time, somehow, get this idea that a man is less attractive for not providing.
        
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wigz

6 years ago

It's a cesspool. It accomplishes nothing and most of the content is just shitting on women, not helping men.

There are numerous reputable organizations out there working on men's issues, the MRM is not one of them.

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shade_ilmaendu

6 years ago

I support men's rights but not necessarily the MRM. Much of what they do is combative, anti woman, and fails to focus on issues related to males in minority groups.

It's still a burgeoning movement but I've seen great things coming out of the Mens Lib movement, which is trying to use the framework provided by feminism to solve mens issues and have a more inclusive and productive dialouge.

So many of the root problems that effect both men and women's equality are interconnected I think it's so important that we're reaching across the aisle and working together to solve these issues rather than fighting with each other about them. In that way in particular modern feminism has done much in say, the past 30 years compared to many of its forbears who were far more militant in their beliefs and actions.

I still think it's good for men to have their own movement, we as a society have come a long way but there is always more we can do to make the world better for everyone and the more people fighting for that cause in one way or another, the more we can hope to achieve in our lifetimes. But that's not going to be done by leaving some people out of the conversation, or by simply combating feminism and often it seems the MRM is more interested in taking women down a peg than say, working towards the issue of unfair rates of incarceration for black men.

Sorry I didn't actually vote on the poll as I don't feel my answer properly fit any of the responses.

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[Old Memory]

6 years ago

I'm rushing through this response, so pardon the misspellings and possibly the hostile tone. If I seem hostile it's not intentional, I'm just rushing.

In what way does the MRM seem anti-woman? In the next paragraph you state that feminism has a men's issues group that's framed within feminisms ideology. Would you not say that feminism has also spouted anti-male sentiments? That a framework used for men's issues from a group that spouts anti-male rhetoric such as males being oppressive would conflict with the sympathetic attention men's issues would need?

I would also like to ask if paying attention to minority male issues rather than issues all males suffer from or are at risk of is a good idea? In my opinion separating white men and POC men is risky due to how feminists may well care about POC that are men due to their difference in race while villifying the white male group, as they often do.

While I'd like to see feminism support men's rights I don't think it's possible as feminists will expect men's issues to be looked at through the lens of feminist ideology, which again, often villifies men, white men in particular. For example, how can the MRM expect feminists to genuinely care about men's issues when they often protest events centred around men's issues, such as the male suicide rate?

I'm replying to each point you make as I go along and I've noticed you've done what I said feminists would do if we were to focus on POC men's issues seperatly from men's issues.
For example, compared to women, men in general are unfairly punished compared to the punishments women face for crimes, it's not something only black men suffer from and it's something the MRM does talk about, however it seems that conversation isn't good enough because the MRM does not focus on the black men's incarceration subject, even though, although maybe not entirely, the subject of male incarnation rates would and does include black men.

I would also like to ask what the Men's lib group is like? What subjects do they talk about and what do they believe is the cause of those issues?

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- shade_ilmaendu
  
  6 years ago
  
  I feel as though I remember us occasionally butting heads in the past, but no your tone doesn't sound hostile at all! I'm on day 7 of a long stretch of working right now so I hope this is all coherent in the end.
  
  I've felt that men's rights can be antagonistic, at least based on what I've seen on reddit. That might just be due to the overlap there with the RedPill and MGTOW crowd, maybe I've just looked there at the wrong times, etc. But it seems they focus much more on what women do wrong than on what needs to happen for men. Again, perhaps this has changed/I was looking at bad times/other groups within the movement are less like that.
  
  I would say feminism has definitely had hostility toward men, especially in the second wave when things like militant lesbianism was happening. And don't even get me started on the radfem, PIV sex is rape insanity. I wish we could just cleanly dissect those people from our movement.
  
  I wouldn't say it's good to focus only on minority issues, I simply feel they aren't addressed at all. There definitely are many ways our society can treat men better. The incarceration rate is a huge issue for men in general and a good point to bring up, I would love to see a huge reform to our prison system in general and especially in that regard. Issues like child custody, masculine stereotypes and how they limit men, the issue of male rape and domestic abuse and how society tends to treat those people are huge and really do need activists and politicians to take note of so that reforms may happen.
  
  At least in my own circles of feminism, there is very little hostility toward men at all, unless it's a situation that calls for argumentation against or kicking/banning particular individuals who are simply there to cause trouble, but I can't deny there are still those militant types out there who overall make the movement look bad. But I've seen a lot of good things come through feminism as well and was actually turned on to mens rights and the way sexism and patriarchy hurts men through my intro to women's studies class in college, we spent a decent bit of our time talking about that.
  
  The men's lib group does use the concept of patriarchy... not like, a shadow society of men conspiring to hurt da wimminz or whatever, but what ways stereotypes about gender effect both people. Like, how women are expected to be caretakers also causing the issues in family courts, and as the reason that men are looked down on for being stay at home fathers. Or the idea that women are weak or otherwise inherently more innocent being the reason for the disparate incarceration rates.
  
  If you would be interested, www.reddit.com/menslib is the forum and you could see for yourself, I've seen a lot of great discussion there and learned a lot from simply lurking and reading the threads.
  
  And for what it's worth.. https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/3tn9kc/a_list_of_feminist_resources_tackling_mens_issues/
  
  That's from their sub with a huge list of resources for and articles about men's issues, to give a better example of the kinds of things feminists have done and the kinds of things I would love to see more of. We're all on this planet together, we should try to make it better for everyone who lives here.
  
  Nice to see that you're still around, differences in opinion or not. I wasn't expecting so much of the old guard to still be active here when I came back.
  
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  - [Old Memory]
    
    6 years ago
    
    It's almost certain. Remember, I butted heads with everyone at somepoint. Haha.
    
    Ooft, Reddit. Never a good place to represent a group in my opinion, I wouldn't even go look at any feminist pages on that site because for some reason it brings out the worst in groups. Lol. It's very possible that you've seen people from the manosphere and accompanied them with the MRAs, I know I once did before dwelling into it and seeing that, asside from the MRM and maybe a part of MGTOW, it's pretty extreme, like PUA and the die hard red-pillers. Not to say you haven't met any genuinly crappy MRAs, I've butted heads with them myself.
    
    I think a large problem with some hostility towards women within the manosphere is justified anger directed at the wrong target, if that makes sense? I think a lot of people see feminists religiously blame society's issues on men and just bash men and then in turn they assume feminism = women. I know I myself fell into that trap when I was getting introduced to this topic all those years ago. There's also the fact of the justice system unfairly favoring women and I do think that a lot of people see women getting lighter sentences or getting off scottfree and attribute the blame on the female sex when in reality blame is solely at the place of the justice system. So I can understand where the anger towards women can come from within the manosphere and parts of the MRM but I disagree with it being how to go forward or even fair on the female sex. That said, I don't believe the figure heads of the MRM necessarily blame women for legal mistreatments although it can sound like that. A lot of the time they are illustrating that women can get away with things unfairly or have a lesser punishment while explaining how it unfairly impacts men. Kind of like saying, yes, women do these things and the legal system lets them, not to imply women in general are bad but that there are women that are bad that take advantage of the system.
    
    Although I agree that there are some far extreme feminists such as the PIV rape feminists but I personally don't give them much time. The parts of feminism that bash men, from what I've observed, are the majority, the ones that somehow got an extremely sexist and redundant word as, "mansplaining" in the dictionary.
    
    I get your point about minority males but where it stands is that the MRM is quite small, it has quite low reach, for the reasons I explained in my initial comment, that trying to not only focus on numerous issues for all men but to seperate into numerous issues for numerous races would just be pointless, it doesn't have the range or quantity of members to be able to focus on all different groups of peoples issues which is why I think it's better to keep to the standard of issues that face all men, including minorities, before going on to smaller groups of mens issues. Then again, I don't believe they'd be able to get that far to even be listened to their standard points and be taken seriously.
    
    Agreed with the part about male topics needing talked about but to be fair I doubt, atleast in my life time, that it'll change. There is a politician for men's rights, I believe his name is Phillip Davies, who tries his best. There was even an act brought forward to be accepted by a feminist that he attended. Now I don't know the full context of the act but it was something regarding violence against women, more legal safety nets for women regarding facing violence. Phillip Davies opposed the act saying that he agrees entirely with the content within it, it sounds like a good idea, however he wants to oppose it so that it can make a small modification and be more inclusive, to include men in the act so that they may also benefit from a safety net of violence, in which if those changes were made he'd be onboard and support it one hundred percent. He was scoffed, gasped, and laughed at. The act went through unchanged. That's the system we live in, and it's why I believe any feminist framework in regards to men's issues is too risky and will more likely be used to further the ideology of feminism than to help men. When someone intentionally excludes men from a safety net from violence and someone asks if they would just change it to protect men aswell and that's met with negativity, it speaks volumes about the culture in which we live, that maybe, just maybe, men are given the raw end of the stick and feminists are part of the reason why.
    
    What circles are they? Because it seems that every one I've went into over the years, even when I'm being respectful, all I'm met with is negativity? Now I couldn't possibly of visited even half of feminist pages to say that would be the case for all feminist places so I was just wondering where are those circles? If you don't want to tell me that's fine. :P
    And yeah, I've seen idiots on feminist pages arguing some stupid BS that really do need to be taken down a peg by the feminists on those pages. Won't lie, some people visiting feminist pages to "discuss" things are just there to be assholes.
    
    Would you be able to give me an explanation of your class' view of how men are harmed by patriarchy, what the causes are, and who are responsible? Not to be disrespectful, and I may be wrong, but in anywhere in the explanation your class gave did it ever place blame on women, for any reason, in which men act a certain way, as feminists do in regards to blaming men for things such as beauty standards?
    
    A good example of women possibly being partially to blame in sopcietal stereotypes comes up in your next paragraph. This is just a possibility but I'll run it by you. I think it's fair to say that women generally prefer a man that can provide for her and the family, even if she's capable of it herself, right? Believe there were quite a few studies about it thatwomen prefer men more successful than themselves as a partner than vice versa, even for very successful women. Now this isn't the case for all women but could maybe be said for atleast half, if not majority? If you don't agree be sure to tell me. So would this societal expectation of women being care takers and men being bread winners not then be the fault of women's preference in men? That maybe this isn't the cause of a patriarchy but is due to what type of man women are attracted to? And in response, the system views women are the better care takers because of the choices women have made that led women to be more likely to be care takers than men? That in response stay at home fathers are shamed because in general women would prefer a man that can provide rather than one that doesn't, therefor making it a stigma both men and women put upon stay at home fathers? I mean, I'm pretty sure stay at home father isn't the best selling romance genre. Lol.
    
    Has your class ever given the thought of that even being a possibility a try? Maybe it has, I'm doubtful but it's possible?
    
    Thanks for the link. I don't like visiting any Reddit pages, for reasons stated above but I'll take your word for it and check it out after my shower and I'm all prettied up. Haha.
    
    I'll deffo check them out tonight and hopefully be able to respond to give ya my views on some. :P
    
    Yeah, I took quite a break a long time ago but came back, well, quite a while back. I'm more active on here now. It's good to see ya too, I'm enjoying our little chat, I like that we can chat about it instead of arguing, like I'm sure I'd of done quite a while back. I'll be here until I'm on a rocking chair, complaining about the damn wimminz and teh evilz faminism. Haha.
    
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    - wigz
      
      6 years ago
      
      Regarding men in the justice system, what you're not seeing is men getting off scott free. It's largely ignored but it is extremely common. You're citing sentences but ignoring the times when men are caught but let go. I have seen it so much in my life. My own father (a white dude) had somewhere beetween 5-10 DUI's yet still was able to get off on most with no record and even become a professional truck driver with CDL license and STILL drove drunk after that regularly. I was in car with a guy who was drunk driving with no license and the car not legal and got pulled over and the cops said "oh it's you, Jeremy, just go home". This is everyday stuff.
      
      I got arrested for DUI but wasn't even driving and spent days in jail because they had the phones turned off so I could not even contact anyone yet the same day I got arrested a man got pulled in a fast food drive thru DUI and he got to call someone to pick him up with no consequences. It's not so cut and dry. Men are let go soooooo often. I can name several violent male serial rapist/killers off the top of my head who were stopped or taken in and let go who went on to rape/kill more after that. The whole pussypass thing annoys me because it's so misleading. Men get away with so much every day but it's just so common it goes unacknowledged.
      
      Female incarceration rates is the fastest growing https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/17/women-incarceration-rates-growth-study
      
      How can we fix this? Not by some knee-jerk 'oh let's haul in women like we do men'...how about revamping our ideas on incarceration in general. Let's not hold people who are nonviolent. Let's get real and decriminalize drugs. Those things alone would help so many men. But the MRM doesn't note that, they just complain that a woman might not rot in jail as long as a man (whether true or not), nevermind if the man in question should even be in jail himself and no matter how he fares after prison with his criminal record and employment gap...as long as he can be used as a statistic by the MRM. If he kills himself, even better! It's just another 'gotcha' feminists! Not really, but this is exactly how the MRM exploits men. They don't care except to have talking points. Every dead male is more of a gotcha than a problem to fix because the MRM never fixes problems or even really tries to, they just parade victims and statistics around but do nothing for aactual living breathing men.
      
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      - [Old Memory]
        
        6 years ago
        
        Deffo not saying men don't get given leeway, it deffo happens, just that when it comes to sentencing and likelihood to be sentenced that it's more likely that a woman would not face the same sentencing. Lol.
        
        That second paragraph seems shitty. Did you complain about it? Quite unfair you'd get shafted to the bottom without a phonecall.
        That said, I do think there's a difference when it comes to jails and prisons. Lol.
        
        Oh, deffo not. My response to incaceration rates and the difference between male and female rates was never to increase women's, I just think that would be stupid. I think there needs to be a reform towards how we treat crimes that have no victims for a start. Haha. Not even joking, I'm reading and replying as I go along and just seen your non-violent part after I said that myself. Hehe. I was going to mention decriminaliuzing drugs too, so I'll just say agreed there.
        
        Well, I'm not going to say you're lying because even though we disagree on this subject I do trust you but I have talked about those things with MRAs and feminists when it comes to incarceration reform. Don't get me wrong, women being punished more certainly is involved because part of the reform should include women getting equal or roughly equal punishment for heinous crimes but that doesn't mean that we don't talk about what we just mentioned there about non-violent crime committing inmates and drug reform. Part of men being in prison when they shouldn't be and how they fare after they serve their time is also something we talk about, although I haven't been doing anything MRAish for years now. Lol.
        
        I think that's quite unfair to say that the MRM uses male suicide to further a point. Come on, you have to admit that wasn't really great to say. That would be like me saying feminists want more men to rape more women to approve the idea of rape culture and toxic masculinity, all so that feminists can point and say, "ha! Gotcha!"
        
        To be honest, as I explained I believe in my initial point, the MRM isn't going to progress in this culture. To be honest, it's all they can do. Gotcha moments is all the MRM can really achieve, and ofcourse if it's the only way they can really prove a point, even if it benefits nobody, atleast the point was made. I mean, the MRM can try make events to talk about men's issues but they are bombarded with some of the worst aspect of feminist protesters.
        
        I think there's only so much of the same points you can bring up without anybody taking it seriously before you start getting desensitized to those points. For example, and I'll speak for myself here so please don't use me as the representative of the MRM, but a lot of the time when I made the point I'd get a bit bleh about it, I felt genuinly bad. I used to make a ton of MRA points, and on occassion I still do but I'm sure you remember when it's all I talked about. After so long, seeing that nobody is taking it seriously, seeing the culture that contributes to why it's not being taken seriously spread further, I find it hard to have much of an emotional response to the poins anymore, I just see it as how life is and how it'll stay, that no matter what happens, all the MRM can really do is use it the inequalities as talking points. Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't see anything progressing for men's issues, atleast not in my lifetime, so when I discuss the topic I know full well that even if I did have a good point and show someone the inequalities and get someone to agree, that's all it's ever going to achieve; someone agreeing to a subject that won't go further than the discussion.
        
        So when it's said the MRM doesn't try to do much, they have in the past. They've tried to spread awareness, which I think we can all agree is equally important, we've tried to raise money, which some douche who was trusted to look after the money, well, she was a feminists and ran off with it. I believe Earl Silverman also tried to create just one mens shelter, and I'm sure you remember that he committed suicide because he couldn't get funding like women's shelters could.
        
        Hell, like I said above, there's even a men's rights politician and he opposed some violence against women's act being proposed basically saying that he agrees almost completely with what's being proposed but all he asks is if they take it back, make it include everyone instead of just women, and he'd be in full support. That wasn't met with positivity at all.
        
        I think something that needs remembered is that the MRM is really small, to be fair. People like to lump anti-feminists with MRAs, or MGTOWS with MRAs, or even PUAs with MRAs but they're not, a lot of them even hate eachother, or even hate the idea of men's rights. The MRM is extremely small, so many of them either aren't rolling in cash or are quite young. The MRM just isn't capable of achieving for men what feminists have for women and I don't believe that'll ever change. LOl.
        
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    - shade_ilmaendu
      
      6 years ago
      
      Most of my exposure to the MRM has been through Reddit, so that may very well be the problem. There does seem to be a decent bit of overlap in those communities, as much as they try to avoid it. In thinking about it I suppose that could be why the MensLib group became a thing, as a way for people to distance from the more toxic parts of the community.
      
      And you might very well be right. Anyone new to an idea, especially something like that where it's learning about things that effect you personally can take things too far. I feel a lot of problems with the complaints people make about feminism seem to often come from younger people, women probably just learning about all of these things and taking that anger too far. I was definitely a lot more hot headed myself back in the day. It can be easy to see how that sort of thing would escalate in a community of other people all saying the same thing. The anger needs to be directed at the system, that's for sure, the only way things are going to change is if we get down to the root problems.
      
      I guess another thing that's bothered me about that is the seeming assumption or generalization that it's always the case, that all women get these benefits, which at least in my experience is not true. The example of Sandra Bland comes to mind. Or, in my own life... not being an "attractive" woman and frankly looking kind of rough, I've not been privy to many of those benefits. In fact the one time I went to police for help (long story, save to say psychedellics were involved and a very irresponsible aquaintence put is all in danger) I was screamed at and threatened when I tried to explain what had happened.
      
      And that does make sense. Focus on the broader issues and hopefully gain some traction and more supporters before you get into specifics. It would do me well to remember that feminists are working on a 100+ year history, wheras mens rights is still a burgeoning organization.
      
      That example you gave, is that what people called the Duluth Model? I feel like I remember reading about something like that.. feel like it had been some time ago, maybe in the 90s and... that is incredibly unfortunate. Anyone can be abused, anyone can be abuser. No one in particular should ever be getting the preferential treatment. I have a friend as it is whos in an on and off abusive relationship with a woman... keeps going back because of the children but, what surprised me with everything I've heard about how men are treated is how incredibly helpful the police have been with him. I realize that's not the norm everywhere.
      
      Honestly a lot of that is just my social circles in real life, many if not most of my friends are feminist or at least progressive towards civil rights issues in general and I haven't seen much of that kind of attitude, not that I'd be willing to stay in such circles if that was prevalent. Otherwise, though things have changed somewhat, a few communities on reddit, namely TwoX and TrollX. TrollX is more just a women's community for funnies and memes, but definitely a large feminist following. TwoX was the womens issues subreddit, for news, advice, support and sharing. It's changed considerably in the past few years it was made a default, we had an influx of people who would have never sought out the content without it and the comments on most posts have devolved to arguments, victim blaming on support threads, trolling and all of the things that make me hate the rest of reddit and try to seek out only those smaller communities. So the picture on that today isn't quite the same as it used to be. Granted I occasionally still see people taking things too far or being radical, but they tend to be downvoted and argued against as well they should be.
      
      I feel like, at the core of things our issues can be narrowed down to the same sexist ideas of how men and women are supposed to be. Men don't cry because women are the emotional ones. Women get the kids becasue men can't be caretakers. Men go to jail more because masculinity is agressive or violent. Men can't be abused because women are weak. It's all coming from this concept of strict adherence to gender roles and what that apparently means to the people who are writing, or interpreting the laws. I don't really know where to assign the blame, as it's spread around quite a bit. Many people, men, women, lawmakers and judges, doctors and retail managers are all just as likely as the next to perpetuate sexism and stereotypical thinking. It's an issue of worldview. If anything, I think the blame would rest upon certain schools of traditional thought that perpetuate these stereotypes and preferences. It's not down to simply an individual of group of people but rather a way of looking at the world, I don't think there's anyone out there purposefully deciding "I want less rights for X group and more rights for Y group", its more sibtle than that.
      
      And women can absolutely be to blame for perpetuating some of this themselves. I would be curious to see where the crossover is with women who say prefer a more successful man with women who identify as feminists, as I'm pretty sure it's less than 50% of women who actually would call themselves feminist. All I can speak for is personally that's not true for me, I am actually the breadwinner of my household currently as my boyfriend has been largely out of work since being diagnosed epileptic. Sometimes I may think "man it would be nice to have a break while he works", but that's just exhaustion or laziness or needing a break from the pressure of being the only one relied upon. I can't imagine what it's like for the breadwinners when there's a family involved, that much stress, as I'm already pretty damn stressed out just caring for him and the kitties. But I am in agreeance at least in that women perpetuate patriarchy just as much as men do, the name can be misleading but Ive always interpreted it as simply a concept that values certain traits of masculinity over feminity and thusly enforces those stereotypes that apply to each.
      
      And just a note on the second part of that paragraph, about the choices women make as opposed to men. Until more recently (I want to say past 40 years or so) there often wasn't much of a choice for women. Actually had a customer through my store recently though I think this was referencing the 30s so even longer ago, that her great grandmother had to hide the fact that she was married because she would have been fired from her job because of it. Women haven't until recently had a choice to decide between career and children, and it's still limiting to women because of the burden of actually, bearing the child. Sure, you can go back to work... after taking at least 4 weeks off generally, though at that point you're probably going back to work still healing and bleeding like mad. Many places in this country at least won't hold the position or offer limited or only unpaid leave, making it more difficult when the act of having a child is so restrictively expensive. If a woman honestly wants time to raise and care for the child, she's taking a serious hit to her career and may never make it back to where she was, or it may not be worth going back to work due to the cost of childcare.
      
      I feel the model of a lot of european countries really does better in regards to that, allowing both maternal and paternal paid leaves and giving new parents the time they need to raise and bond with their children in that first formative year. They are our future after all and I feel that's a worthwhile investment.
      
      As far as the class... I'm trying to remember back probably 8 years here, but I knwo there was talk in the class about how women perpetuate these things as well. In fact I'm pretty sure there were some women in that class perpetuating harmful stereotypes themselves and that was called out and discussed. I can't really remember a lot of the specifics there, mostly just the concepts I learned and videos watched on both sides of the aisle. The "Tough Guise" documentary involving mens issues in particular was really eye opening for me.
      
      *pant, pant* Okay, I think I covered everything there. If I did miss or misinterpret anything please do let me know. :P
      
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      - wigz
        
        6 years ago
        
        That response was very disappointing...
        
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    - wigz
      
      6 years ago
      
      Without looking it up, what do you think 'women's studies' is?
      
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      - [Old Memory]
        
        6 years ago
        
        I'm assuming it's a class about the history of women, including their accomplishments and the way they got their rights? My high school had a mandatory one and I wasn't caught up on the whole sexes discussion at that point but looking back it did have quite the feminist, anti-male approach, so that's where my views on it are. Is that correct orrr? :P
        
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    - shade_ilmaendu
      
      6 years ago
      
      I just wanted to say that I have read this and will respond when I'm able, which will either be later tonight or tomorrow depending on what's happening when I get back from work. I'm closing tonight and may be coming home to hop on our Ark server if I'm not too damn tired after working. But thank you for such a thoughtful response and I will get back to that as soon as I have the time. I'm quite enjoying this chat as well - I was definitely more argumentative in the old days. :P
      
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      - [Old Memory]
        
        6 years ago
        
        That's no problem. Don't rush it, have a chill before replying, I'll still be here when you got time to spare. :P
        
        Oooo, Ark the game? If so, how good is it? I've thought about getting it for Xbox one as my gaming PC is long gone. Haha.
        
        Hey, me and you both. Don't get me wrong, with certain folk I still argue with rather than discuss with but I try to be mature now. Haha. Alrighty, you get back to work or you're Ark. I'll cya when I cya. :P
        
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  - [Old Memory]
    
    6 years ago
    
    Hey there. I've read your response but as I'm on a tight schedule until about 5-6 I can't respond. I've tried but I've accidently clicked cancel twice, deleting my entire reply twice. Haha. I'm a dope.
    
    I'll be sure to respond later though, I'm enjoying our wee chat. :)
    
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factcheck

6 years ago

"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

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[Old Memory]

6 years ago

That mentality puts into perspective as to why feminist continuously protest MRA events talking about male issues; they don't want to be oppressed by men's issues being equally talked about as women's issues.

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Kevinevan

6 years ago

I dont know what it is but in general I am against all self proclaimed groups demanding rights for themselves. It's unnecessary. Everyone should just have the same rights.

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Unstuck-in-Time

6 years ago

I believe in true equality for all humans. With the exception being violent and sexually based criminals.

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yjing

6 years ago

I m a woman and never heard of it. I m not a feminist and I think all humans have rights point. I think the male female bs is a way to distract people and divide them. Nobody have to be abused and we all have rights.

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AbnormallyAwesome

6 years ago

I respect anyone fighting for a good cause. I think men's rights are just as important as women's. I just wish these groups could stop fighting each other. There seems to be way too much focus on who's to blame instead of trying to better the situation. And it's always the other group that has to change ...
I think when it comes to censorship the MRM has been taking a lot of sh*t, and it's not fair. Everyone should be allowed to be heard if their intentions are honest.

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I believe in men's rights, but I have no opinion.	4
I believe in men's rights, but I hate them.	2
I'm a supporter of the men's movement.	6
I'm a feminist, and I have no opinion.	0
I'm not anything, and I have no opinion.	4
I'm a feminist, and I support their effort	1
I'm not anything, and I support their effort	2
I'm a feminist, and I hate them.	3
I'm not anything, and I hate them.	3

Are You Normal?