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I feel like ever since I discovered sonder (look it up) I feel like I am able to empathize with bad people, even if I don't agree with them. Because I feel like, whether we like it or not, assholes like Ben Shapiro have feelings too. People like him legitimately believe that what they're doing is correct. Am I stupid for thinking this?
I just can’t get past the fact that Ben Shapiro is the first example you thought of for a bad person 😂
@my_life_my_way as much as I disagree with a lot of the things you say, I agree on that.
Yeah I was about to comment about how a 5 foot tall jew has the establishment worried because he has opinions shared by quarter of the population and most people at least understand the logic of his positions.
He's a good relevant example. Hitler is an overused example and way too extreme as well. Not to mention I wasn't alive in the 40's- so it isn't super relevant to me to bring him up for several reasons.
I think it's impossible to empathize with people like hitler, he was human at one point but lost his humanity after setting out for the eradication of jewish people. Empathy can only go so far.
Ben Shapiro is a good example because he's scum- but he doesn't (directly) kill anybody. He has a lot of skewed, nonsense views and is a general nuisance-
But it's possible for me to empathize with him because he's still a human with thoughts and feelings.
So then you can’t empathise with bad people, you can empathise with morally grey people who you disagree with politically, as can any normal human being.
I don't know; based on LloydAsher's description, he seems like a pretty good guy.
You're basically asking whether or not it's okay to humanize humans. Even for the most selfish, self-righteous, twisted douchebags in history, it'd be kind of an oversight to just forget they're a person with the mind and feelings of a person
See, that's what I thought. But people in my family don't seem to think so, so I felt conflicted about it. Glad to know other people feel the same way as I do.
I wouldn't really care much to humanize Ted Bundy. Yes, Ted Bundy was a human being, but he was an evil piece of shit person.
Whether, or not Ben Shapiro is a bad person is entirely subjective. I would respect you, and your post so much more if you hadn't mentioned a specific person.
Ben Shapiro is just a conservative Jewish dude. By people in the very far left he is their version of hitler as the "charismatic leader"
Ben Shapiro is for anti abortion, anti censorship and other moderate conservative talking points, he can really stand his ground in debates.
The biggest group of haters are white suppremisists and anti-semites
If you empathize with bad people that means you've done what they have or something similar
There's a lot of context that goes with that, but having empathy is a tell tale sign of being a good person, unless it's out of sharing chagrin over being found out
Now people like Ben Shapiro, it's hard to say what he actually believes because him and his family maintain their wealth and power by aligning themselves with what capitalism favors, people who can do what it takes to make a lot of money
He goes around basically winning debates with people on issues that people he'd like to keep support from would agree with
So we don't really know what he thinks, we just see part of a really big mental chess game played out with group psychology
Now we can glean some things from that, like he's more about the bottom line than bettering society, and we can use our deductive reasoning skills to assess how he got to be like that, and we can even offer sympathy because more than likely he was indoctrinated and led to lead a life like that
But I don't personally agree with that outlook on life and think it's somewhat deplorable, although somewhat unfounded since I don't know the full scope of his life
I mean I could feel bad if he really was full on indoctrinated into being like that, but at this point this is who he is choosing to be as the fully capable adult he displays
We can use sympathy like this to recognize what we can do better in our own lives. I wouldn't say the sympathy itself is the end goal, more like perspective to become better people
Like we can see how shallow it is to just go around trying to win arguments and debates to bolster our positions and agendas. We can see how it's more mentally developed to talk things out and understand each other and reach compromises. We can see the dogma in invalidating people we just superficially don't agree with
Isn't everyone bad on some level, though? My understanding of the world is that it's not good people and bad people, so much as people who admit they're bad and people who don't...
I've never stolen anything from a shop. But I've watched illegally downloaded films. In principle, it's still theft. So it is possible for me to get inside the mind of someone who steals things from shops.
If you had to have done the exact thing yourself in order to be able to empathise, then there's a slew of award-winning crime fiction writers that would need to be locked up!!
While what you say is true, there are people who are more or less bad than others.
Though I'm not sure whether the degrees of badness make much of a difference when you weigh it all up in the balance and take into account the mitigating circumstances, I think you're basically right.
Everything is relative to the times. Slavery in a preindustrial society makes sense. When man power is in abundance slavery is the "cheapest" route to using it.
I dont bat an eye at preindustrial slavery but modern slavery is abhorrent and is more prevalent than preindustrial slavery.
I'm looking at you china with your concentration camps, social credit system, genocide, prejudice against gays, forced abortions, prejudice against all religions etc.
Imagine a bell curve of the goodness and badness of people. Most people are gonna fall in the middle, some bad and some good, and much fewer can say they're more good or more bad
So you've illegally watched movies online. You can understand how people perform petty theft. It's mostly opportunistic, maybe out of need if they steal small amounts of food or something. The empathy here is understanding the thrill of opportunistic theft, the need for necessities, or not caring about putting in your few dollars for media
You can still get in the mind of someone without having empathy for them. This is where psychology comes into play. Writers are creative. Do you really think Stephen King was locked in a house and forced to write a sequel for a fan who force fed him pills and broke his legs, or do you think he just wrote a story that *could* happen to him, thus enabling creativity? If that happened to someone else, he would definitely be able to offer sympathy, and maybe empathy if he really mentally went through everything it would be like, but even then it's hard to objectively say it's empathy. There are things that would happen that you wouldn't know unless you went through it. It's hard to really say how you would mentally go through something like that. It's easy to say it would suck. Would you truly understand the sense of being trapped, having someone sledge hammer your feet, feeling adrenaline overwhelm your system, the desire for freedom, the rationalization to kill someone. It's easy to say "yeah, YEAH, that sucks and I'd kill her too!" whereas it's actually difficult to sincerely understand what it would be like to go through that for months on end
It's also a bit of a non sequitur to say because you've pirated a few movies you can offer empathy to any thief of any calibur
Empathy is hard to achieve, but easy to claim
See, I think you might be thinking of it more like sympathy.
Empathy is special because it's putting yourself into the other person's world and understanding it without having experienced it.
Sympathy is just seeing someone hurt and saying, "damn, that sucks. I'm sorry.".
I have never been in charles manson's shoes before, but I can empathize with his actions and understand what lead to that and understand his thought proccess was legitimate in his eyes. I don't agree with him on any level, but I underetand. That's why I went here because it's a really complex feeling that I don't think I understand very well.
Although I agree with most of what you're saying- that's only because you're talking more about sympathy than empathy.
I don't feel bad for Ben Shapiro or Charles Manson, I just understand. Not in a good way though.
Although even that isn't quite what it is- I don't know- again, it's complicated.
I disagree with you. I don't think you do understand, since, to truly understand, you must certainly have to agree with the person. You cannot truly understand the argument someone makes or someone going mad and killing people without agreeing with them. You only have a partial understanding at best.
em·pa·thy
/ˈempəTHē/
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noun
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
sym·pa·thy
/ˈsimpəTHē/
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noun
1.
feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
"they had great sympathy for the flood victims"
2.
understanding between people; common feeling.
"the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all"
Empathy is special because it shows how you truly do understand someone, through your own experiences you're able to put yourself in their shoes
Sympathy is endearing because it shows you care, by imagining what it's like for them and offering sincere condolences
I've been called and aspire to be an empath. I see it as one of the strongest human traits
Maybe what you feel for Shapiro and Manson is pity?
Spirituality *is* definitely complicated. It's best to get a lot of groundwork in before we start positing ideas. Presuppositions can be dangerous.
I too can understand people like Shapiro and Manson. I've also studied psychology and gone through a lot of character development. It's not that I agree with them, it's just that I can see the general path that's taken. Behavior stems from mindsets
I once heard how when you look at the ocean long enough, you can start to see how and why the waves push and pull from each other
Neither are perfect, but I'm talking about conservative legislation that harms people in vulnerable positions.
Sounds weird is a lost cause dude. They think that conservatives are biologically determined to be sociopaths only caring about their communities and family... the nerve of us!
I don't think all conservatives are sociopaths. The notion of them sometimes (most of the time even) caring for their families and possibly even communities excludes them from that.
Basically, conservatives are just more selfish. I also don't think that the biological differences I described outright destinate them to become conservatives; they just make it a lot more likely as they're conducive to it. It's kind of like how having a vagina is a pretty good indication that someone is going to be attracted to men, but they very well might turn out to be homosexual or asexual.
And yes, the nerve of you. You say that after something clearly fucked up as if you don't even see how it is. You probably can't. You don't have much empathy for outsiders. You do (presumably) have empathy though. To understand how what you said looks to people like me, imagine this hypothetical example of a necrophile questioning the reasoning behind their imprisonment. They're in jail because they molested the corpse of your mother: "How can it be rape if they're already dead? It's a victimless crime! So I dig people up and fuck their bodies. The nerve of me!"
Or to be appropriately less extreme, let's just use your own statement but modify it to remove the empathy you do have and reverse it to be something I said instead:
"LloydAsher is a lost cause, dude. He thinks I'm a sociopath just because I only give a shit about myself. The nerve of me, right!?"
See how it looks kind of ridiculous for me to ask about the nerve while admitting to something very clearly fucked up? This is what you did, yet you'll never see it that way. You'll see a statement owning only caring about your family and community as perfectly reasonable, because you don't have much empathy for anyone besides them.
Just like sociopaths don't see anything wrong with being sociopaths because they just can't see it, conservatives can't see anything wrong with being a sociopath that makes exceptions for the people closest to them, because they just can't see it.
You do realize that we believe we are doing the moral/logical position right? We arent twirling our mustaches to do evil (that's the corporations)
The right wing understands that the left is just naive. Not evil. Yet you belive that the right is just evil for no particular reason.
Joe biden got rid of 10k jobs here in the usa. His plan? Green energy... when we lack the battery technology to store it. And those jobs and paychecks? No word so far. They have been busy impeaching a dude who wasnt even in office now with fake evidence? It's like the left and media are doing everything in their combined power to make fun of and diminish the entire right wing that's 50ish percent of the population. What's more is that the New York times had the gull to write about how a cabal of corporate CEOs, billionaires, the media, and politicians conspired in a cabal to "protect the right outcome"
HOW THE FUCK do you think that we are not pissed at this?
That's why I am so pissed off at your attitude towards the right wing. We are still humans! Censoring and conspiring against us will bring war!
The funny thing is that you don't even see the irony or hypocrisy. Mustache-twirling villains? Most of the right-leaning people here do exactly what they baselessly accuse me of.
For example, in that long comment I typed about conservatives, I said conservatives have lower empathy for outsiders. That's true. I do not deny this. I also said they would take a fucking bullet for a family member and would give a close friend the shirt off their back.
I brought up tribal days. If you thought the description of the tribal conservatives sounded bad, I don't know why because it's your view, and no mustache-twirling was applied. You say America first, right? The conservatives of the tribe that I described felt their tribe came first and also thought the other tribe might even kill them. Maybe they would have. I would be one of the ones suggesting how unlikely it was in that situation (an application of not /just/ empathy but also my opinion in terms of logistics) but I'm not suggesting that the other person be exiled or killed.
The conservatives weren't like, "Man, I sure can't wait for that other tribe's kids to thirst to death. I hope it hurts."
They just put their own tribe first, found the other tribe's practices disturbing, and felt they presented more of a risk than any help. Yes, it meant some kids might die. Their lower empathy for outsiders specifically as opposed to for family and also their different brand of logic made this a necessary evil in their minds. They didn't necessarily love it but it was easier for them to think of them as the enemy and forget it. I said that conservatives did things like this a lot to feel better about decisions like that.
I should also say that I said conservatives tend to have lower IQs but that the empathy thing was the bigger issue by far. Okay. So these are things I said and do not deny. It's not exactly a compliment by any means but I've basically just said they're a little more selfish if it doesn't affect their family and (on average) do tend to have slightly lower IQs.
So you then say I've said conservatives are to be "shunned" and even "exiled". Like what the fuck, man? I just said I think they're selfish. Exiled?! Pretty big stretch. Then you said I only feel this way because I didn't like Trump? I didn't even mention Trump once in the comment. Trump is over and I literally brought up tribes, man. Clearly I seem to think this has been a thing for a minute or two.
When I think it can't go more off-base than it has (and this is just priceless), ItDuz suggests I find conservatives "cartoonishly evil" while insinuating I have some plan regarding eugenics! How's that for having a cartoonish view of someone? Then you did it too. Do you even know what it is? Did you even read anything I said? I said the left has higher IQs on average. That's just an observed fact. I didn't even go as far as saying right-wingers should have a less valuable vote or move or something and you act like I called for genocide. But I'm the one who is cartoonish. I'm the one accusing the right of being mustache-twirlers. You basically pulled the "literally Hitler" that the right criticises the left for doing with Trump.
Generally speaking, it is right wingers that enforce harsh laws on people who are more needy in society, be they sick, handicapped etc. That's just a fact.
Empathizing isn't the same as agreeing with their action or opinions. Those who do bad things usually had their reasons one way or another, both in movies and in real life. There is a reason why crime and poverty hangs together. Doing terrible things should still be punished, both to discourage it (and that's needed in any society) and because if you ruin someone elses life you kinda deserve to take the consequences of it. I also find that for just about every controversial topic there are good, understandable arguments on both sides when you actually start talking with people.
Jesus Christ you people focusing on the fact I said mentioned Ben Shapiro are the worst.
You basically ignored the entire actual subject of the post, and only read "Ben Shapiro Bad" and decided to focus on that.
I never said that.
Also, you're incorrect.
Not all republicans are bad, but all conservatives and right-winger extremists, like Ben, are. Of course, this is just my opinion.
Also- ignore the fucking part about Ben Shapiro. For fucks sake he was not the subject of the conversation.
We here on Is It Normal are pedants. You will probably now forever be known on this website as "the one who hates Ben Shapiro."
How is Ben Shapiro a right wing extremist? Can you give me some examples of what policies he likes that are extreme? Ben is far from an extremist. Hes not even that far to the right actually.
'shapiro destroys people who show compassion towards him with facts & logic'
Yes if you're highly empathic. I'm the same way unfortunately but mostly with people I know, like the bad people i've met in life I empathize with them and i'm able to see things from their point of view even if I dislike them unless i'm really angry at the moment. Most people thinks that's naive which is possible but I really think that most people are good unless they completely lack empathy and are a psychopath/sociopath and that they do hurtful things because of inner pain and insecurities which doesn't excuse their behaviour but explains it and maybe hopefully one day they can better themselves, realize what they've done wrong prior and do good instead or at least try.
Honestly, I think most dictators are/were just trying to do what they think/thought was/is best for their countries. I don't think serial killers just want what's best, though.
most serial killers have a history of childhood abuse and trauma, they are subconsciously trying to get even(with the world) by inflicting the same kind of abuse.
Depends. You have the maniacal 'altruistic' kind who think they are doing the earth a service... Granted, they're rare.
It kind of does though. Well, it does if they're informed and not just doing what daddy did while pretty oblivious regarding the details. Still, it's a /very/ far cry from things like being a serial killer.
I'm actually with my_way_my_life on having nearly laughed aloud at Ben fucking Shapiro having been offered as the poster child of evil.