Seriously though, there are benefits. One benefit to me is that I like how I look. I feel better wearing clothes that fit a certain way. I feel more confident when I look better. That does not give anybody the right to treat me like an object that's there for their entertainment. It doesn't give anybody the right to yell at me on the street, or honk their horn, or slow down their car to drive beside me while I walk. It doesn't give anybody the right to masturbate in the store while looking at me. These are all things I've had to deal with on multiple occasions. And honestly, what I'm wearing doesn't seem to make that much of a difference.
Here's an idea: you know those women who you say are purposefully wearing clothes to get men's attention and acting violated when they get stared at? Maybe they're telling the truth. Maybe you're not a mind reader, and women don't need your magical man brain to explain the reasoning behind our actions and feelings. Maybe, just MAYBE, women are human beings who actually have a right to expect to be treated with respect. Maybe being female doesn't mean I should have to earn that respect by dressing in a way you approve of.
Loose clothes aren't very comfortable for me, either. I'll wear loose clothing to bed or while relaxing, but if I'm out and about, loose clothing feels strange and frumpy. Also, loose clothes have more material, and they can get too hot in warm weather. When I put on tight clothing, it's for me, not for anybody else. And if you grab me, yell at me, or obviously leer at me, that's not ok. There's basically nothing I can do about it, though, (even if I'm raped, the chances of actually being able to convict the culprit are extremely slim), so I'm really not sure what you're upset about.
Why does it make you feel confident? Because it makes you look good? How does it make you look good? Because it is showing off the areas that men want to see?
I need you to explain why.
This is what I dislike. Women think that everyone should overcome what is natural for their benefits. If your image makes you show out all the parts that are sexual, ofcourse that's the attention you're going to get. If you dress up as a police officer, ofcourse someone is going to ask you for help if they need it.
If women want to dress that way, they have to accept that these are the reactions, and it can't be the males' fault for doing what their nature makes them do.
Every action has a reaction, and if your action is to make all your sexual bits be more shown or defined, ofcourse you're going to be viewed in a sexual way. But explain. What reason do they have for it that does not go through my man brain? You're a woman that explained to wear such clothing, so you must know.
I am not saying wear loose clothing. Wear normal average day clothes if you don't want to be viewd in a sexual way.
If you accept that these things will happen due to wearing tight clothing, then I don't find anything wrong with it. You realize it's a reaction to an action.
Also, I don't think wearing tight clothing is an excuse for rape.
Rereading my last reply, I realised that I made it sound like I don't think that women ever dress provocatively to get male attention. This is not the case. I know for a fact that women dress to get male attention, sometimes, but I don't think it's appropriate to assume that's the case. Let's say you're on a train, and you see a woman sitting nearby, wearing an outfit that you would consider provocative. Before you assume that she's looking for your attention, consider these points:
1) Different people have different ideas of what "provocative" and "tight" mean.
You don't know what this woman's standards regarding appropriate dress are, and she doesn't know what yours are. Ask yourself why you believe that her outfit is provocative. Is it because it's well outside the norm of what a woman would wear from day to day, or is it because of the particulars of what personally turns you on? Some clothing is obviously provocative and fetishistic: if she's wearing a catsuit, sure, she's definitely looking for attention from SOMEONE (we'll come back to that later). If her skirt is just a bit short by your standards, though, it's very possible that she doesn't even know it might be considered provocative. If she looks like she's a stripper, maybe she IS a stripper on the way to work (it is still kind of rude to stare at strippers when they're not working). If she's all made up, wearing a tight dress, and looks like she's going on a date, maybe she IS going on a date. And that brings us to…
2) Looking for attention ≠ looking for YOUR attention.
Let's say she's dressed to kill: tight dress, high heels, push up bra, red lipstick… you get the idea. Sure, there's a pretty strong possibility that she's dressed that way because she wants to turn somebody on. Don't assume that person is you. If she's on her way to see her boyfriend (or girlfriend, or fuck buddy, or whoever), chances are, she's not looking for attention on the subway. Fortunately, she's probably sending signals that will help tell you whether this is the case.
3) People communicate through body language.
Is she facing away from you? Is she reading a book? Is she playing with her phone? Is she staring out the window with her arms crossed? Leave her alone. She's not looking for attention from you. These are all things that can be evaluated at a glance. If she makes eye contact and smiles, or if she greets you, she MIGHT be looking for attention from you. If you stare at her and she turns away, or if you talk to her and she replies in single syllables, or if she outright tells you to leave her alone, back off. Sometimes people send the wrong signals by mistake.
4) Depending on what you mean by "normal average day clothes", that might not really be commercially available for women.
Women's clothes are way more complicated and crazy than men's clothes. This isn't just something that happens if you want really fashionable clothes, either, it's just how women's clothing stores are, for some reason. Remember in like the early to mid 2000s, when lots of women were wearing jeans that showed their butt cracks (and often the least flattering part of the stomach, just below the belly button)? I do. I hated that trend, but I took part in it anyway, because I needed new jeans, and was next to impossible to get a pair that didn't at least threaten to expose some crack. It was awful. You know how a lot of women wear shirts made of really thin material these days? That's because if you shop in the women's section, almost all of the materials are super thin now. If you care at all about wearing clothes that fit properly, and you don't have the time and money to find clothes that fit your specifications, you end up unwillingly participating in shit like this. The same goes for short shorts, push up bras (it's so hard to find a bra in my size that's not a push up bra, which is weird because my cup size is above average), low cut shirts, and fitted t shirts.
5) There are reasons other than male attention to wear more exposing clothes.
For example, I'm 5'3. If I wear a skirt or dress that goes below the knee (unless it's floor length, which is usually impractical), or even comes too close to knee length, my legs look awful and stumpy. Maybe nobody else notices, I don't know, but it makes me feel shitty. Another example: I'm getting married soon, and my wedding dress is strapless (almost all wedding dresses are strapless these days. I can't explain it). I don't want tan lines on my wedding day, so I bought a strapless bikini to wear to the beach. Yet another example: if I wear a shirt that's loose and not fitted to my figure, it makes my waist look much bigger than it is, because I have an hourglass body type. Shirts are either tight in the bust or loose in the waist. Those are my choices.
6) Is what's gotten your attention about her actually what she's wearing, or is it something about her body?
I'd say my nipples are visibly hard about 60% of the time. It's involuntary. It's not because I'm aroused. It's not even because I'm cold, usually. I don't know. Yes, I have bras with padding, but they don't always completely hide it. Also, as a somewhat busty woman (not super busty, but above average for my frame), I can't really make my body look asexual. My breasts are there.
Finally, don't give me this "It's human nature for men to stare, so we can't help it" bullshit. You are perfectly capable of not staring. It's human nature to stare at people who are visibly deformed, too, but it's still fucking rude. Sure, you might slip up sometimes. If you do, apologise. It's not that hard.
There's a difference between "that may be provocative", and obviously looking for sexual attention.
You're confusing occasional provocative attire to casual provocative attire. If they are going to a place that needs such a look, then still the reaction is to be expected.
Yes, she may not be looking for "my attention" (people in general), but when someone goes to college in clothes that are provocative or goes shopping with it, which is a lot, then the standing still stands.
Such as the body language thing, I have to dissagree. I knew someone in college that dressed very provocative, and when she got stared at, she was like "Ugh, I hate when people stare at me", and I though to myself, wel you dressed in a way that will react in that behavior, what do you expect?
Jeans and a shirt. Trackies? They are definetly female available. I have seen plenty skirts that aren't thin, and going online to shop is also something you could do.
So you want to look good. Why do you want to look good?
The point of looking at the body language is so that you can tell if a woman wants attention from you. I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.
If you're staring at a woman and she complains about it or gives you a disapproving look, JUST STOP STARING. It's not that hard. It sounds like you feel entitled to stare at women if they don't dress the way you think women should dress. Legally speaking, yes, you have the right to do that. But women also have the right to tell you to cut it out. I don't understand why it's so difficult to respect people's wishes. All you have to do is turn your head. It's super easy. If you make somebody uncomfortable by accident, just apologise. That's also super easy.
I want to look good because I enjoy it. I don't have to justify that to you or anybody else. Don't you like looking good? It's pretty common, you know, in humans.
Do you live somewhere where it doesn't get hot? Where I live, walking around in jeans can be unsafe in the summer because of the heat. In the end, though, it doesn't matter if you think it's hot enough for short shorts. It doesn't matter if you think women are dressing inappropriately. If it's as common as you say, then it's within the bounds of what's acceptable in our society, and you need to get over it. What a person is wearing is not an excuse for you to be rude to them. Period. Nobody's going to arrest you for staring, but if you openly stare, you're being rude, and sometimes people will call you out on it. Deal with it.
So if I walk outside naked, then crossed my arms, I should be shocked or feel violated if someone is staring at me in that manner?
If you are wearing very revealing clothing, it's common sense that people are going to stare. You're trying to say everyone should change their nature, and yes, their nature, back to our primitive times they even done this by carvings, etc, just ebcause she wants to dress in a provocative way.
Why do you enjoy it? What makes it so enjoying? Yes, I like looking good, and why? Because I like to be seen by other people as looking smart and handsome. People stare at me for it, and I understand why. When I don't want someone to stare at me, I also understand the way "I" chose to dress made me someone to look at. We want to look good so that others make us look good, otherwise why would you feel the need to walk outside looking as such? If you are doing it for you, then why not do it in your home, then dress respectfully when going out?
Woman, don't talk to me about areas not hot. It is roating here. My skin apparantly has started looking golden instead of pale (I like pale more) because of the heat, and I barely go out, about an hour at most. Don't you dare! It brings bad memories of losing my pale skin. Lol.
On serious note, what about trackies? Average shorts? Skirts that don't show the bottom of your...bottom?
Well if you dress in a away that gives off sexual pressence, then you're going to be stared at. It's not against the law. Deal with it. Same train of thought.
It's not legal or socially acceptable to walk outside naked. My point is that if somebody is behaving within the social norm, it's not appropriate to react in a rude way. Going out naked isn't within the social norm. Wearing a short skirt is.
If you personally enjoy it because people look at you, fine. That's not why I enjoy it. I enjoy looking good even when I'm completely alone.
By "trackies", I assume you mean "track pants", and those aren't really appropriate for many situations. They're fine if you're just going to the grocery store or working out, but they're not professional or appropriate for a moderately nice restaurant (basically anything other than a fast food place or diner). A man might be able to get away with it, but there are higher standards for what women are supposed to wear. You can get away with jeans, but people still stare, and if a woman's jeans actually fit correctly, she'll be accused of wearing tight pants.
You're complaining about women complaining about getting stared at. If you do something rude, it's silly to complain about people pointing it out. Wearing revealing clothing isn't rude (except in certain situations, like at a funeral). It has nothing to do with you.
Also, "average" shorts are for women are much, much shorter than average shorts for men. Unless you shop in the men's section, you get short shorts.
"...yell at me on the street, or honk their horn, or slow down their car to drive beside me while I walk. It doesn't give anybody the right to masturbate in the store while looking at me..."
Do you know why this stuff happens? Because you're lying. I stumbled across this post and I read this argument and, I know it's been 4 months ago, but I just couldn't keep myself from replying.
I find it awful hard to believe that, on a common basis, you have guys slowing their cars down and honking their cars at you when you walk down the street. And guys masterbate to you inside of the store? Get real. I suppose that there are no customers or empoyees around when this happens. Guys just take one glance at you and, because you're so damn hot and all guys are pigs, they simply ignore the possibility of embarrassment, zip down their pants and masterbate to you like you're the fantasy turned reality Walmart porn. You're either really full of yourself or blind to reality.
Yeah. I agree with ItDuz. Big time! And this is coming from a heterosexual woman. If you don't want to be stared at or "masterbated to" then don't wear the clothes. Regardless of if you like it or not, it's going to happen. When you wear tight clothes, you take the risk of being stared at. That's how it is. That's how the world roles. No one said you would like it, but life isn't fair. I like to dress goth everyday. Is there a possibilty that I'm going to get the "She a dark devil-worshipping" look. Yes. And there are plenty of people who judge me based off of my attire. But you know what, when I get dressed in the more, I know I am taking that risk.
I'm not gonna lie. I see a hot-ass guy, I'm gonna stare at him. Why? because I'm human and I'm attracted to the opposite sex. Same thing with guys staring at you. It's nature. We as visually stimiluted creatures like to stare at things that appeal to us. It doesn't make us pigs. It doesn't make us perverts. It makes us human.
"That does not give anybody the right to treat me like an object that's there for their entertainment..." Stop fucking crying! It makes you sound pititful and pathetic. No one's treating you like some sort of object or you're not a human being, they like the way you look. Hate it or love it. You don't like to be stared at, don't wear the tight clothes. You want to wear the tight clothes, suck it up and, in all honesty, be a man about it. Stop crying over some shit like that because you're not a victim, you're not being sexually harrassed. You're simply living in the real world.
I'm done here. Tried to ignore this, but I couldn't help it. Masterbating to you in the store...my ass! I guess they have some kind of telekinetic masterbation ability where they don't actually have to touch their genitals. They can just imagine jacking off and they feel everything as if it's actually happening. And then when they orgasm, they've trained their bodies not to react. Yeah. I'm not buying that bullshit!
If you want examples that this happens regularly just look at this site.
http://www.ihollaback.org/
While I'm glad you've never experienced such a thing it has happened to me and every female friend I know. The first time a group of friends and I got honked at was in the 5th grade (and we looked like we were in the 5th grade, we were not ~*~sexy~*~).
1. Why are you using "masterbate to" in quotes like she was the one who misspelled that? You misspelled that. Many, many times. It's "masturbate", you simp.
2. How the fuck do YOU know whether or not another person has honked, or started at, or "masterbated to" her in public? Are you psychic? Are you fucking clairvoyant, able to see events from far away? No? Then shut your word hole. Or, more accurately in this context, still your key-jabbers.
3. Hey, maybe the hot guy you're ogling doesn't want to be looked at. Maybe you're a hideous hambeast and your disgusting drooling is making that guy uncomfortable. How would you feel if a disgusting fat neckbeard wearing an undersized t-shirt wouldn't stop ogling you? or came over and wanted to grope on you? I bet you wouldn't take it as a fucking compliment.
4. You're a fucking thread necromancer. Get the shit out of here.
I put it in quotes becuase, regardless of how it is spelled, it didn't happen. How do I know? Because I'm not retarded. Do I get ogled? Yeah. So does everyone else, but I suck it up because this is the real world, bitch. Time to grow up and stop playing the victim role over some shit like that. She wants to wear tight clothes. By all means, she can wear them, but if she's going to cry and make lies like a little bitch about it then maybe she should re-think it.
If you're gonna tell a lie you at least make it sound real.
Can you point out even one part of her comment where she said that she was wearing "tight" clothes when this happened, and not "comfortable" clothes or clothes that "fit a certain way"? Go ahead, I'll wait.
Well, considering that this argument is about wearing tight clothes and, clearly she feels confident in tight clothes,she's said something about how hard it is to find clothes that are loose in popular clothing stores, how dressing in tight clothes is more comfortable and that she wears loose fitting clothes to bed I would think she is arguing over her right to wear tight clothes without being stared at. Not to mention that this post was written over tight fitting female clothing, and while it isn't so much about staring and sexual objectification, I would think that it was the statement that ItDuz made about tight fitting clothes that provoked a response out of her. Read the rest of the argument.
Aside from that, I really could give two shits whether or not she wants to wear tight fitting clothes or not. She can do whatever the hell she wants, but if she is going to argue about it, she shouldn't just sit there and lie, and on the side of that, lie badly. Which I think we can both agree that she lied badly, or are you too ridiculously gullible to believe that bullshit? I typically never reply to someone's comment. I normally don't give a hoot what someone has to say, and I continue on my way. But with this pathetic crap she left with the "guys masterbate to her on multiple occasions in the store" (because all men are just pigs with no self control or shame). And then that pitiful victim playing bull shit about being objectified. It's just a couple of stares. I've been stared at. You've been stared. I've stared. You've stared. She's fucking stared (whether she'll admit it or not). She needs to get over it, grow some fucking, balls, and move on with her life. Guys are gonna stare.
But yeah. I had to respond. And the fact that you're defending her. Wow. You are equally as pathetic.
Yes, I'm the one who is pathetic. You're accusing a person of lying about being ogled, and then defending creeps who stare and hoot at women, and I'M pathetic for defending a person's right to dress how they want without being started at if they don't want to be. Phyllis Schafly would be proud of you.
It sounds like some of my post may have been unclear, so I'll try to clarify some things.
Yes, I've had men publicly masturbate while staring at me. It's not a regular occurrence, and I didn't mean to imply that it was, but it's not something that should happen at all. It's happened twice in my life. No, I'm not saying they masturbated with their minds. I'm talking about people actually reaching into their pants. No, that isn't normal behaviour, but my point in bringing it up was to say that being stared at for a length of time significant enough to be uncomfortable is a more difficult experience when you're not sure if it might escalate. No, not all guys are pigs. Most men don't do that. I realise that. But it can be very difficult to report that kind of behaviour when I live in a culture where I don't know if I'm going to be blamed for it. I'm not accusing all men of that behaviour, I'm saying that we need to change our culture into one where when the occasional sicko does something like that, women can talk about it without being accused of bragging about their own attractiveness, causing the incident by dressing the wrong way, or making the whole thing up.
Everything I mentioned has happened over the course of years, not in rapid succession. But even a few experiences like that can go a long way in making somebody feel unsafe or uncomfortable. I never said "on a common basis". I have gotten a lot of honks and catcalls from passing cars (that used to happen on almost every walk I went on), but I think that might be particularly common in the city I live in. They don't do it so much now that I have my wheelchair, and I don't miss it.
I want to clarify the type of "tight clothes" I'm talking about, because I think that's one of the least clear things in this whole conversation. I'm not talking about wearing latex or spandex. The clothes I usually wear are more along the lines of fitted t-shirts, dresses with fitted (but not skin tight) tops, and jeans that fit properly. When I say "tight" in this case, I mean "not baggy".
Yes, my experiences have been different from yours. That's ok. It doesn't mean that I'm lying. There are a lot of reasons that our experiences may be different. We probably live in different places, and we may live in different cultures. Since you don't think that cars honking and slowing down is very common, I think we must live in very different areas, because where I live, it's absurdly common. I've talked to friends and family who've had similar experiences.
Also, you seem to be under the impression that I think a lot of my appearance. It was a little strange (and painful) to read, actually, because I don't. In fact, my body image is poor to the point of being crippling. I've been bulimic for quite a few years, and while I don't think poor body image necessarily caused my eating disorder, it's a big part of it for me. I'm struggling with recovery. If you don't believe me about that, there are several users here who can confirm it, including OswaldCobblepot, who's my husband, a few IINers who I know in real life, and one IINer who's quite well respected, but who I won't name here without permission. My bulimia is actually part of why it's important to me to wear clothes and makeup that I find flattering: it allows me to have some control over my body and appearance in a way that's not destructive.
Really, my point in posting about this would be null if I thought I were some sort of magical siren who makes men lose control. I'm not the only one who's had experiences like this, and I don't think that attractiveness necessarily has much to do with it. Basically my whole point is that sexual harassment isn't some sort of involuntary impulse that men have when they see women, that not harassing people isn't hard, and that harassment is common enough that staring, especially very obvious staring, makes some people feel unsafe.
Staring doesn't make you a pig or a bad person, but if somebody mentions that they feel uncomfortable with the way you or someone else stares at them, it seems to me like it's very basic respect and empathy to try to make that person feel safer, rather than telling them it's their fault. I don't want people to pity me, I'm not asking anybody to pretend their sexuality doesn't exist, and I'm certainly not bragging about my questionable looks. I brought up my experiences because some people honestly don't know that this sort of thing happens (including you, by the sound of it), and knowing about different people's different experiences can help people understand each other. All I'm asking for is a little consideration, a little respect, and a little empathy.
It probably seems really uncommon because of the fear of being called a "little bitch" and accused of lying by people like you. I'm not the only person who has these experiences. So, my experiences disagree with your point of view. Forgive me, but aren't you just out of high school? Has it occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, your life thus far hasn't covered the totality of human experience?
Do I bring the best out of people or the worse? There are all kinds of reasons why we stare and yes we all stare at something or another. Unfortanely a sex addict is just as a addict as a drug addict or an alcohol addict. In each of these cases you have a enabler and then the receiver and in regards to all addictions the enabler and the receiver only bring out the worse in people. You might have a happy drunk but how much damage have they caused to loved ones. Is a friend really a friend when they encourage there recovering alcohoic friend to drink, of course not. To tell someone to stop staring is like telling a alcoholic not to drink. Sure, tell them to stop but is it really going to stop. Remove the source of the addiction and it will over time stop. If we really care for each other then we should help each other; If what I do brings out the worse in you, what does that say about me. The worse addicts are the "self-centered" ones. Always pointing the finger, adding to the problem and never coming to a resolution. I would hope that one could over look their pride for the sake of somebody in need of help but if you can't, then atleast you know your just as an addict as the rest of them. I hope that's not you!
Why women wear tight fitting clothes?
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Seriously though, there are benefits. One benefit to me is that I like how I look. I feel better wearing clothes that fit a certain way. I feel more confident when I look better. That does not give anybody the right to treat me like an object that's there for their entertainment. It doesn't give anybody the right to yell at me on the street, or honk their horn, or slow down their car to drive beside me while I walk. It doesn't give anybody the right to masturbate in the store while looking at me. These are all things I've had to deal with on multiple occasions. And honestly, what I'm wearing doesn't seem to make that much of a difference.
Here's an idea: you know those women who you say are purposefully wearing clothes to get men's attention and acting violated when they get stared at? Maybe they're telling the truth. Maybe you're not a mind reader, and women don't need your magical man brain to explain the reasoning behind our actions and feelings. Maybe, just MAYBE, women are human beings who actually have a right to expect to be treated with respect. Maybe being female doesn't mean I should have to earn that respect by dressing in a way you approve of.
Loose clothes aren't very comfortable for me, either. I'll wear loose clothing to bed or while relaxing, but if I'm out and about, loose clothing feels strange and frumpy. Also, loose clothes have more material, and they can get too hot in warm weather. When I put on tight clothing, it's for me, not for anybody else. And if you grab me, yell at me, or obviously leer at me, that's not ok. There's basically nothing I can do about it, though, (even if I'm raped, the chances of actually being able to convict the culprit are extremely slim), so I'm really not sure what you're upset about.
Also:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m75moc1Ni81qbiop5o2_500.gif
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Why does it make you feel confident? Because it makes you look good? How does it make you look good? Because it is showing off the areas that men want to see?
I need you to explain why.
This is what I dislike. Women think that everyone should overcome what is natural for their benefits. If your image makes you show out all the parts that are sexual, ofcourse that's the attention you're going to get. If you dress up as a police officer, ofcourse someone is going to ask you for help if they need it.
If women want to dress that way, they have to accept that these are the reactions, and it can't be the males' fault for doing what their nature makes them do.
Every action has a reaction, and if your action is to make all your sexual bits be more shown or defined, ofcourse you're going to be viewed in a sexual way. But explain. What reason do they have for it that does not go through my man brain? You're a woman that explained to wear such clothing, so you must know.
I am not saying wear loose clothing. Wear normal average day clothes if you don't want to be viewd in a sexual way.
If you accept that these things will happen due to wearing tight clothing, then I don't find anything wrong with it. You realize it's a reaction to an action.
Also, I don't think wearing tight clothing is an excuse for rape.
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Rereading my last reply, I realised that I made it sound like I don't think that women ever dress provocatively to get male attention. This is not the case. I know for a fact that women dress to get male attention, sometimes, but I don't think it's appropriate to assume that's the case. Let's say you're on a train, and you see a woman sitting nearby, wearing an outfit that you would consider provocative. Before you assume that she's looking for your attention, consider these points:
1) Different people have different ideas of what "provocative" and "tight" mean.
You don't know what this woman's standards regarding appropriate dress are, and she doesn't know what yours are. Ask yourself why you believe that her outfit is provocative. Is it because it's well outside the norm of what a woman would wear from day to day, or is it because of the particulars of what personally turns you on? Some clothing is obviously provocative and fetishistic: if she's wearing a catsuit, sure, she's definitely looking for attention from SOMEONE (we'll come back to that later). If her skirt is just a bit short by your standards, though, it's very possible that she doesn't even know it might be considered provocative. If she looks like she's a stripper, maybe she IS a stripper on the way to work (it is still kind of rude to stare at strippers when they're not working). If she's all made up, wearing a tight dress, and looks like she's going on a date, maybe she IS going on a date. And that brings us to…
2) Looking for attention ≠ looking for YOUR attention.
Let's say she's dressed to kill: tight dress, high heels, push up bra, red lipstick… you get the idea. Sure, there's a pretty strong possibility that she's dressed that way because she wants to turn somebody on. Don't assume that person is you. If she's on her way to see her boyfriend (or girlfriend, or fuck buddy, or whoever), chances are, she's not looking for attention on the subway. Fortunately, she's probably sending signals that will help tell you whether this is the case.
3) People communicate through body language.
Is she facing away from you? Is she reading a book? Is she playing with her phone? Is she staring out the window with her arms crossed? Leave her alone. She's not looking for attention from you. These are all things that can be evaluated at a glance. If she makes eye contact and smiles, or if she greets you, she MIGHT be looking for attention from you. If you stare at her and she turns away, or if you talk to her and she replies in single syllables, or if she outright tells you to leave her alone, back off. Sometimes people send the wrong signals by mistake.
4) Depending on what you mean by "normal average day clothes", that might not really be commercially available for women.
Women's clothes are way more complicated and crazy than men's clothes. This isn't just something that happens if you want really fashionable clothes, either, it's just how women's clothing stores are, for some reason. Remember in like the early to mid 2000s, when lots of women were wearing jeans that showed their butt cracks (and often the least flattering part of the stomach, just below the belly button)? I do. I hated that trend, but I took part in it anyway, because I needed new jeans, and was next to impossible to get a pair that didn't at least threaten to expose some crack. It was awful. You know how a lot of women wear shirts made of really thin material these days? That's because if you shop in the women's section, almost all of the materials are super thin now. If you care at all about wearing clothes that fit properly, and you don't have the time and money to find clothes that fit your specifications, you end up unwillingly participating in shit like this. The same goes for short shorts, push up bras (it's so hard to find a bra in my size that's not a push up bra, which is weird because my cup size is above average), low cut shirts, and fitted t shirts.
5) There are reasons other than male attention to wear more exposing clothes.
For example, I'm 5'3. If I wear a skirt or dress that goes below the knee (unless it's floor length, which is usually impractical), or even comes too close to knee length, my legs look awful and stumpy. Maybe nobody else notices, I don't know, but it makes me feel shitty. Another example: I'm getting married soon, and my wedding dress is strapless (almost all wedding dresses are strapless these days. I can't explain it). I don't want tan lines on my wedding day, so I bought a strapless bikini to wear to the beach. Yet another example: if I wear a shirt that's loose and not fitted to my figure, it makes my waist look much bigger than it is, because I have an hourglass body type. Shirts are either tight in the bust or loose in the waist. Those are my choices.
6) Is what's gotten your attention about her actually what she's wearing, or is it something about her body?
I'd say my nipples are visibly hard about 60% of the time. It's involuntary. It's not because I'm aroused. It's not even because I'm cold, usually. I don't know. Yes, I have bras with padding, but they don't always completely hide it. Also, as a somewhat busty woman (not super busty, but above average for my frame), I can't really make my body look asexual. My breasts are there.
Finally, don't give me this "It's human nature for men to stare, so we can't help it" bullshit. You are perfectly capable of not staring. It's human nature to stare at people who are visibly deformed, too, but it's still fucking rude. Sure, you might slip up sometimes. If you do, apologise. It's not that hard.
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[Old Memory]
11 years ago
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There's a difference between "that may be provocative", and obviously looking for sexual attention.
You're confusing occasional provocative attire to casual provocative attire. If they are going to a place that needs such a look, then still the reaction is to be expected.
Yes, she may not be looking for "my attention" (people in general), but when someone goes to college in clothes that are provocative or goes shopping with it, which is a lot, then the standing still stands.
Such as the body language thing, I have to dissagree. I knew someone in college that dressed very provocative, and when she got stared at, she was like "Ugh, I hate when people stare at me", and I though to myself, wel you dressed in a way that will react in that behavior, what do you expect?
Jeans and a shirt. Trackies? They are definetly female available. I have seen plenty skirts that aren't thin, and going online to shop is also something you could do.
So you want to look good. Why do you want to look good?
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VioletTrees
11 years ago
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The point of looking at the body language is so that you can tell if a woman wants attention from you. I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.
If you're staring at a woman and she complains about it or gives you a disapproving look, JUST STOP STARING. It's not that hard. It sounds like you feel entitled to stare at women if they don't dress the way you think women should dress. Legally speaking, yes, you have the right to do that. But women also have the right to tell you to cut it out. I don't understand why it's so difficult to respect people's wishes. All you have to do is turn your head. It's super easy. If you make somebody uncomfortable by accident, just apologise. That's also super easy.
I want to look good because I enjoy it. I don't have to justify that to you or anybody else. Don't you like looking good? It's pretty common, you know, in humans.
Do you live somewhere where it doesn't get hot? Where I live, walking around in jeans can be unsafe in the summer because of the heat. In the end, though, it doesn't matter if you think it's hot enough for short shorts. It doesn't matter if you think women are dressing inappropriately. If it's as common as you say, then it's within the bounds of what's acceptable in our society, and you need to get over it. What a person is wearing is not an excuse for you to be rude to them. Period. Nobody's going to arrest you for staring, but if you openly stare, you're being rude, and sometimes people will call you out on it. Deal with it.
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[Old Memory]
11 years ago
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So if I walk outside naked, then crossed my arms, I should be shocked or feel violated if someone is staring at me in that manner?
If you are wearing very revealing clothing, it's common sense that people are going to stare. You're trying to say everyone should change their nature, and yes, their nature, back to our primitive times they even done this by carvings, etc, just ebcause she wants to dress in a provocative way.
Why do you enjoy it? What makes it so enjoying? Yes, I like looking good, and why? Because I like to be seen by other people as looking smart and handsome. People stare at me for it, and I understand why. When I don't want someone to stare at me, I also understand the way "I" chose to dress made me someone to look at. We want to look good so that others make us look good, otherwise why would you feel the need to walk outside looking as such? If you are doing it for you, then why not do it in your home, then dress respectfully when going out?
Woman, don't talk to me about areas not hot. It is roating here. My skin apparantly has started looking golden instead of pale (I like pale more) because of the heat, and I barely go out, about an hour at most. Don't you dare! It brings bad memories of losing my pale skin. Lol.
On serious note, what about trackies? Average shorts? Skirts that don't show the bottom of your...bottom?
Well if you dress in a away that gives off sexual pressence, then you're going to be stared at. It's not against the law. Deal with it. Same train of thought.
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1000yrVampireKing
10 years ago
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VioletTrees
11 years ago
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If you did you are most likely a nudist and they see this as normal.
It's not legal or socially acceptable to walk outside naked. My point is that if somebody is behaving within the social norm, it's not appropriate to react in a rude way. Going out naked isn't within the social norm. Wearing a short skirt is.
If you personally enjoy it because people look at you, fine. That's not why I enjoy it. I enjoy looking good even when I'm completely alone.
By "trackies", I assume you mean "track pants", and those aren't really appropriate for many situations. They're fine if you're just going to the grocery store or working out, but they're not professional or appropriate for a moderately nice restaurant (basically anything other than a fast food place or diner). A man might be able to get away with it, but there are higher standards for what women are supposed to wear. You can get away with jeans, but people still stare, and if a woman's jeans actually fit correctly, she'll be accused of wearing tight pants.
You're complaining about women complaining about getting stared at. If you do something rude, it's silly to complain about people pointing it out. Wearing revealing clothing isn't rude (except in certain situations, like at a funeral). It has nothing to do with you.
Also, "average" shorts are for women are much, much shorter than average shorts for men. Unless you shop in the men's section, you get short shorts.
I got your point. Thank you for explaining in detail.
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VioletTrees
11 years ago
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No problem. Thanks for listening!
"...yell at me on the street, or honk their horn, or slow down their car to drive beside me while I walk. It doesn't give anybody the right to masturbate in the store while looking at me..."
Do you know why this stuff happens? Because you're lying. I stumbled across this post and I read this argument and, I know it's been 4 months ago, but I just couldn't keep myself from replying.
I find it awful hard to believe that, on a common basis, you have guys slowing their cars down and honking their cars at you when you walk down the street. And guys masterbate to you inside of the store? Get real. I suppose that there are no customers or empoyees around when this happens. Guys just take one glance at you and, because you're so damn hot and all guys are pigs, they simply ignore the possibility of embarrassment, zip down their pants and masterbate to you like you're the fantasy turned reality Walmart porn. You're either really full of yourself or blind to reality.
Yeah. I agree with ItDuz. Big time! And this is coming from a heterosexual woman. If you don't want to be stared at or "masterbated to" then don't wear the clothes. Regardless of if you like it or not, it's going to happen. When you wear tight clothes, you take the risk of being stared at. That's how it is. That's how the world roles. No one said you would like it, but life isn't fair. I like to dress goth everyday. Is there a possibilty that I'm going to get the "She a dark devil-worshipping" look. Yes. And there are plenty of people who judge me based off of my attire. But you know what, when I get dressed in the more, I know I am taking that risk.
I'm not gonna lie. I see a hot-ass guy, I'm gonna stare at him. Why? because I'm human and I'm attracted to the opposite sex. Same thing with guys staring at you. It's nature. We as visually stimiluted creatures like to stare at things that appeal to us. It doesn't make us pigs. It doesn't make us perverts. It makes us human.
"That does not give anybody the right to treat me like an object that's there for their entertainment..." Stop fucking crying! It makes you sound pititful and pathetic. No one's treating you like some sort of object or you're not a human being, they like the way you look. Hate it or love it. You don't like to be stared at, don't wear the tight clothes. You want to wear the tight clothes, suck it up and, in all honesty, be a man about it. Stop crying over some shit like that because you're not a victim, you're not being sexually harrassed. You're simply living in the real world.
I'm done here. Tried to ignore this, but I couldn't help it. Masterbating to you in the store...my ass! I guess they have some kind of telekinetic masterbation ability where they don't actually have to touch their genitals. They can just imagine jacking off and they feel everything as if it's actually happening. And then when they orgasm, they've trained their bodies not to react. Yeah. I'm not buying that bullshit!
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LaMer
10 years ago
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Prince_of_Crows
10 years ago
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VioletTrees
10 years ago
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Man you spent a long time writing this huh?
If you want examples that this happens regularly just look at this site.
http://www.ihollaback.org/
While I'm glad you've never experienced such a thing it has happened to me and every female friend I know. The first time a group of friends and I got honked at was in the 5th grade (and we looked like we were in the 5th grade, we were not ~*~sexy~*~).
1. Why are you using "masterbate to" in quotes like she was the one who misspelled that? You misspelled that. Many, many times. It's "masturbate", you simp.
2. How the fuck do YOU know whether or not another person has honked, or started at, or "masterbated to" her in public? Are you psychic? Are you fucking clairvoyant, able to see events from far away? No? Then shut your word hole. Or, more accurately in this context, still your key-jabbers.
3. Hey, maybe the hot guy you're ogling doesn't want to be looked at. Maybe you're a hideous hambeast and your disgusting drooling is making that guy uncomfortable. How would you feel if a disgusting fat neckbeard wearing an undersized t-shirt wouldn't stop ogling you? or came over and wanted to grope on you? I bet you wouldn't take it as a fucking compliment.
4. You're a fucking thread necromancer. Get the shit out of here.
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KeddersPrincess
10 years ago
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I put it in quotes becuase, regardless of how it is spelled, it didn't happen. How do I know? Because I'm not retarded. Do I get ogled? Yeah. So does everyone else, but I suck it up because this is the real world, bitch. Time to grow up and stop playing the victim role over some shit like that. She wants to wear tight clothes. By all means, she can wear them, but if she's going to cry and make lies like a little bitch about it then maybe she should re-think it.
If you're gonna tell a lie you at least make it sound real.
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Prince_of_Crows
10 years ago
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Can you point out even one part of her comment where she said that she was wearing "tight" clothes when this happened, and not "comfortable" clothes or clothes that "fit a certain way"? Go ahead, I'll wait.
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KeddersPrincess
10 years ago
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Well, considering that this argument is about wearing tight clothes and, clearly she feels confident in tight clothes,she's said something about how hard it is to find clothes that are loose in popular clothing stores, how dressing in tight clothes is more comfortable and that she wears loose fitting clothes to bed I would think she is arguing over her right to wear tight clothes without being stared at. Not to mention that this post was written over tight fitting female clothing, and while it isn't so much about staring and sexual objectification, I would think that it was the statement that ItDuz made about tight fitting clothes that provoked a response out of her. Read the rest of the argument.
Aside from that, I really could give two shits whether or not she wants to wear tight fitting clothes or not. She can do whatever the hell she wants, but if she is going to argue about it, she shouldn't just sit there and lie, and on the side of that, lie badly. Which I think we can both agree that she lied badly, or are you too ridiculously gullible to believe that bullshit? I typically never reply to someone's comment. I normally don't give a hoot what someone has to say, and I continue on my way. But with this pathetic crap she left with the "guys masterbate to her on multiple occasions in the store" (because all men are just pigs with no self control or shame). And then that pitiful victim playing bull shit about being objectified. It's just a couple of stares. I've been stared at. You've been stared. I've stared. You've stared. She's fucking stared (whether she'll admit it or not). She needs to get over it, grow some fucking, balls, and move on with her life. Guys are gonna stare.
But yeah. I had to respond. And the fact that you're defending her. Wow. You are equally as pathetic.
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Prince_of_Crows
10 years ago
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Yes, I'm the one who is pathetic. You're accusing a person of lying about being ogled, and then defending creeps who stare and hoot at women, and I'M pathetic for defending a person's right to dress how they want without being started at if they don't want to be. Phyllis Schafly would be proud of you.
It sounds like some of my post may have been unclear, so I'll try to clarify some things.
Yes, I've had men publicly masturbate while staring at me. It's not a regular occurrence, and I didn't mean to imply that it was, but it's not something that should happen at all. It's happened twice in my life. No, I'm not saying they masturbated with their minds. I'm talking about people actually reaching into their pants. No, that isn't normal behaviour, but my point in bringing it up was to say that being stared at for a length of time significant enough to be uncomfortable is a more difficult experience when you're not sure if it might escalate. No, not all guys are pigs. Most men don't do that. I realise that. But it can be very difficult to report that kind of behaviour when I live in a culture where I don't know if I'm going to be blamed for it. I'm not accusing all men of that behaviour, I'm saying that we need to change our culture into one where when the occasional sicko does something like that, women can talk about it without being accused of bragging about their own attractiveness, causing the incident by dressing the wrong way, or making the whole thing up.
Everything I mentioned has happened over the course of years, not in rapid succession. But even a few experiences like that can go a long way in making somebody feel unsafe or uncomfortable. I never said "on a common basis". I have gotten a lot of honks and catcalls from passing cars (that used to happen on almost every walk I went on), but I think that might be particularly common in the city I live in. They don't do it so much now that I have my wheelchair, and I don't miss it.
I want to clarify the type of "tight clothes" I'm talking about, because I think that's one of the least clear things in this whole conversation. I'm not talking about wearing latex or spandex. The clothes I usually wear are more along the lines of fitted t-shirts, dresses with fitted (but not skin tight) tops, and jeans that fit properly. When I say "tight" in this case, I mean "not baggy".
Yes, my experiences have been different from yours. That's ok. It doesn't mean that I'm lying. There are a lot of reasons that our experiences may be different. We probably live in different places, and we may live in different cultures. Since you don't think that cars honking and slowing down is very common, I think we must live in very different areas, because where I live, it's absurdly common. I've talked to friends and family who've had similar experiences.
Also, you seem to be under the impression that I think a lot of my appearance. It was a little strange (and painful) to read, actually, because I don't. In fact, my body image is poor to the point of being crippling. I've been bulimic for quite a few years, and while I don't think poor body image necessarily caused my eating disorder, it's a big part of it for me. I'm struggling with recovery. If you don't believe me about that, there are several users here who can confirm it, including OswaldCobblepot, who's my husband, a few IINers who I know in real life, and one IINer who's quite well respected, but who I won't name here without permission. My bulimia is actually part of why it's important to me to wear clothes and makeup that I find flattering: it allows me to have some control over my body and appearance in a way that's not destructive.
Really, my point in posting about this would be null if I thought I were some sort of magical siren who makes men lose control. I'm not the only one who's had experiences like this, and I don't think that attractiveness necessarily has much to do with it. Basically my whole point is that sexual harassment isn't some sort of involuntary impulse that men have when they see women, that not harassing people isn't hard, and that harassment is common enough that staring, especially very obvious staring, makes some people feel unsafe.
Staring doesn't make you a pig or a bad person, but if somebody mentions that they feel uncomfortable with the way you or someone else stares at them, it seems to me like it's very basic respect and empathy to try to make that person feel safer, rather than telling them it's their fault. I don't want people to pity me, I'm not asking anybody to pretend their sexuality doesn't exist, and I'm certainly not bragging about my questionable looks. I brought up my experiences because some people honestly don't know that this sort of thing happens (including you, by the sound of it), and knowing about different people's different experiences can help people understand each other. All I'm asking for is a little consideration, a little respect, and a little empathy.
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KeddersPrincess
10 years ago
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VioletTrees
10 years ago
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It probably seems really uncommon because of the fear of being called a "little bitch" and accused of lying by people like you. I'm not the only person who has these experiences. So, my experiences disagree with your point of view. Forgive me, but aren't you just out of high school? Has it occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, your life thus far hasn't covered the totality of human experience?
Do I bring the best out of people or the worse? There are all kinds of reasons why we stare and yes we all stare at something or another. Unfortanely a sex addict is just as a addict as a drug addict or an alcohol addict. In each of these cases you have a enabler and then the receiver and in regards to all addictions the enabler and the receiver only bring out the worse in people. You might have a happy drunk but how much damage have they caused to loved ones. Is a friend really a friend when they encourage there recovering alcohoic friend to drink, of course not. To tell someone to stop staring is like telling a alcoholic not to drink. Sure, tell them to stop but is it really going to stop. Remove the source of the addiction and it will over time stop. If we really care for each other then we should help each other; If what I do brings out the worse in you, what does that say about me. The worse addicts are the "self-centered" ones. Always pointing the finger, adding to the problem and never coming to a resolution. I would hope that one could over look their pride for the sake of somebody in need of help but if you can't, then atleast you know your just as an addict as the rest of them. I hope that's not you!