That's confusing me too. They could have brought up imprisonment, suicide rates, or cultural ideologies of forcibly repressed emotions and instead they mention that "pesky feminism". If anyone really believes that men's largest issue is women saying "ew. boys drool and manspread" - they're also saying that men must literally have no issues.
I think feminism is demonizing men a lot more than you do. You bring up an interesting one about "cultural ideologies of forcibly repressed emotions," Idk if you know this, but the feminists always bring up something similar called "toxic masculinity," on one hand they use it to "help" men by trying to force them to go against their nature, and be as open with their emotions as women, and on the other hand they use it to just straight rip into men when it suits them. It's one of the more fucked up and surreptitious ways feminists fuck with men. The thing that really gets me about "toxic masculinity" is that you have feminists who are so far gone in the ideology that they not only don't get that men aren't women, and will never deal with emotions in the same way they do, but they can just turn it round in a split second to shit all over men. How twisted an ideology have you got to follow to use the same point to both "help" and fuck over men?
But toxic masculinity is an actual thing that harms men. People should talk about their feelings to their support systems and feel free to cry because crying is natural. We shouldn't see healthy display of emotion as feminine because that's a thing that, psychologically, all people need. It's not against nature to feel, and if we accept that men have feelings we must also accept that men need to know how to handle those feelings healthily. I really want to challenge that idea that men are acting like girls when they express emotions because that's one of the largest issue men actually face.
Here's an article that talks about this and offers sources: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/06/18/482156268/is-it-ok-for-boys-to-cry
I think your discrepancy is that those feminists who want to "help" men are not the same feminists who want to "fuck over" men. I'm a feminist. I do a publicity program in my university every year to promote mental health awareness due to high suicide rates among men. I've had other feminists support me, and I've had others scream at me. I'm sure you could understand. There are reasonable conservatives, but most white supremacists also consider themselves conservative. However, that doesn't make ALL or even most conservatives white supremacists.
You know what though. As much as I hate what the feminists do, I do appreciate that you think it's the right thing to do and that you seem to be genuinely trying to help.
I don't think we're going to change each other views, but if I could just leave you with the thought of what if there was a big movement called "toxic femininity," and it constantly barraged women for crying too much being interested in fashion, or putting on makeup, and then told you that you needed to change those behaviours. Would you be alright with that?
To answer that, I have to clearly state what I believe toxic masculinity is. It's a set of myths that society tells boys and men about what it means to be a “real man”, with implicit threats to their worth and identity if they don’t meet those expectations. You should always want sex (a reason why men are ignored if they're raped because REAL men want it), you should be strong and muscular to fight other men and win, you should be a leader in any situation, you should be dominant, you should need no help from others under no circumstances, and you should never show weakness. Another example is, of course, crying. My boyfriend hasn't cried since he was seven years old because his mother beat him. She didn't want a "girl". He's not alone- some statistics paint that 34% of men haven't cried in years. That's a problem. Men aren't more likely to experience depression, but they're 3.5x more likely to commit suicide because of it. There are serious correlations there. You say below that you talk to singular friends instead of the world, and that's amazing! In my programs I don't tell men to suddenly become soap opera stars, but if they do need to reach out to someone they should learn how.
I also want to make it clear that I'm also not arguing that dominant, physically strong, stoic men can't exist. That would be silly. However, I want boys to know that they don't have to become a James Bond. It's okay if they think theater is cooler. If you want to become James Bond, all power to you! Its just important to recognize that you will need help sometimes, you should show weakness to the people you trust the most. That's safe and healthy.
But by that definition, toxic femininity DOES exist. It would be a set of myths through society that standards what a "real" woman should be. We should know how to cook, we should shave every hair from our bodies, we should never leave the house without makeup and always look perfect, we should serve our husbands faithfully lest they leave us, we should be dainty (never argumentative), we MUST have children and we must nurture men who come into our lives. Does that mean its wrong to like makeup and cooking or become a housewife? No, but its impossible to always appear perfect. Its dangerous to never argue when your heart disagrees with something. If you don't want to cook, clean, marry, or have children - you're still a woman. That's why its toxic.
Toxic femininity is an issue, but don't you agree that toxic masculinity is more prevalent?
This isn't just a feminist agenda either. Some toxic masculinity helps women. Sure, its better if you healthily control your emotions because otherwise you have pent up aggression that leads to violence and, in many cases, domestic violence. However, a stereotype from toxic masculinity is that men must be the sole provider in a household. Its been modified that they should make more money, but that shouldn't be true. Its okay if your wife makes more. Its perfectly fine for a wife to care for her husband.
"I do a publicity program in my university every year to promote mental health awareness due to high suicide rates among men. I've had other feminists support me, and I've had others scream at me. I'm sure you could understand. There are reasonable conservatives, but most white supremacists also consider themselves conservative. However, that doesn't make ALL or even most conservatives white supremacists." This sounds completely rational, and yes I can understand that that would be a divisive topic in the feminist community.
I respect your point, and you're obviously coming at it in a rational way. However I really think toxic masculinity is kind of a boogeyman. Many of my friends open up to me, and I open up to them. We talk about our emotions and comfort each other. I think that just because we don't do it to the same level that women do it, doesn't mean it's "toxic masculinity." It's just a different way men function. I really think for the most part it's like trying to get a lion to go vegetarian. It's just not in their nature.
I agree that some men don't cope with their emotions, but I think it's a at a way lower proportion than what the feminists think its it. We just do it in different way, or when we're alone with a friend rather than in a group.
I feel like you're willfully being obtuse with what I'm saying. I did not say what you say "men only have it worse BECAUSE of women?" I said men have it worse due to feminist groups.
Who has it worse, men or women?
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So you're saying men only have it worse BECAUSE of women?
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cinderfloof
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bigbudchonga
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That's confusing me too. They could have brought up imprisonment, suicide rates, or cultural ideologies of forcibly repressed emotions and instead they mention that "pesky feminism". If anyone really believes that men's largest issue is women saying "ew. boys drool and manspread" - they're also saying that men must literally have no issues.
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LornaMae
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bigbudchonga
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Exactly, you got it all right. ;)
I think feminism is demonizing men a lot more than you do. You bring up an interesting one about "cultural ideologies of forcibly repressed emotions," Idk if you know this, but the feminists always bring up something similar called "toxic masculinity," on one hand they use it to "help" men by trying to force them to go against their nature, and be as open with their emotions as women, and on the other hand they use it to just straight rip into men when it suits them. It's one of the more fucked up and surreptitious ways feminists fuck with men. The thing that really gets me about "toxic masculinity" is that you have feminists who are so far gone in the ideology that they not only don't get that men aren't women, and will never deal with emotions in the same way they do, but they can just turn it round in a split second to shit all over men. How twisted an ideology have you got to follow to use the same point to both "help" and fuck over men?
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cinderfloof
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But toxic masculinity is an actual thing that harms men. People should talk about their feelings to their support systems and feel free to cry because crying is natural. We shouldn't see healthy display of emotion as feminine because that's a thing that, psychologically, all people need. It's not against nature to feel, and if we accept that men have feelings we must also accept that men need to know how to handle those feelings healthily. I really want to challenge that idea that men are acting like girls when they express emotions because that's one of the largest issue men actually face.
Here's an article that talks about this and offers sources: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/06/18/482156268/is-it-ok-for-boys-to-cry
I think your discrepancy is that those feminists who want to "help" men are not the same feminists who want to "fuck over" men. I'm a feminist. I do a publicity program in my university every year to promote mental health awareness due to high suicide rates among men. I've had other feminists support me, and I've had others scream at me. I'm sure you could understand. There are reasonable conservatives, but most white supremacists also consider themselves conservative. However, that doesn't make ALL or even most conservatives white supremacists.
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bigbudchonga
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bigbudchonga
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You know what though. As much as I hate what the feminists do, I do appreciate that you think it's the right thing to do and that you seem to be genuinely trying to help.
I don't think we're going to change each other views, but if I could just leave you with the thought of what if there was a big movement called "toxic femininity," and it constantly barraged women for crying too much being interested in fashion, or putting on makeup, and then told you that you needed to change those behaviours. Would you be alright with that?
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cinderfloof
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Thank you! I appreciate that sentiment.
To answer that, I have to clearly state what I believe toxic masculinity is. It's a set of myths that society tells boys and men about what it means to be a “real man”, with implicit threats to their worth and identity if they don’t meet those expectations. You should always want sex (a reason why men are ignored if they're raped because REAL men want it), you should be strong and muscular to fight other men and win, you should be a leader in any situation, you should be dominant, you should need no help from others under no circumstances, and you should never show weakness. Another example is, of course, crying. My boyfriend hasn't cried since he was seven years old because his mother beat him. She didn't want a "girl". He's not alone- some statistics paint that 34% of men haven't cried in years. That's a problem. Men aren't more likely to experience depression, but they're 3.5x more likely to commit suicide because of it. There are serious correlations there. You say below that you talk to singular friends instead of the world, and that's amazing! In my programs I don't tell men to suddenly become soap opera stars, but if they do need to reach out to someone they should learn how.
I also want to make it clear that I'm also not arguing that dominant, physically strong, stoic men can't exist. That would be silly. However, I want boys to know that they don't have to become a James Bond. It's okay if they think theater is cooler. If you want to become James Bond, all power to you! Its just important to recognize that you will need help sometimes, you should show weakness to the people you trust the most. That's safe and healthy.
But by that definition, toxic femininity DOES exist. It would be a set of myths through society that standards what a "real" woman should be. We should know how to cook, we should shave every hair from our bodies, we should never leave the house without makeup and always look perfect, we should serve our husbands faithfully lest they leave us, we should be dainty (never argumentative), we MUST have children and we must nurture men who come into our lives. Does that mean its wrong to like makeup and cooking or become a housewife? No, but its impossible to always appear perfect. Its dangerous to never argue when your heart disagrees with something. If you don't want to cook, clean, marry, or have children - you're still a woman. That's why its toxic.
Toxic femininity is an issue, but don't you agree that toxic masculinity is more prevalent?
This isn't just a feminist agenda either. Some toxic masculinity helps women. Sure, its better if you healthily control your emotions because otherwise you have pent up aggression that leads to violence and, in many cases, domestic violence. However, a stereotype from toxic masculinity is that men must be the sole provider in a household. Its been modified that they should make more money, but that shouldn't be true. Its okay if your wife makes more. Its perfectly fine for a wife to care for her husband.
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charli.m
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Can't thumb this up enough.
"I do a publicity program in my university every year to promote mental health awareness due to high suicide rates among men. I've had other feminists support me, and I've had others scream at me. I'm sure you could understand. There are reasonable conservatives, but most white supremacists also consider themselves conservative. However, that doesn't make ALL or even most conservatives white supremacists." This sounds completely rational, and yes I can understand that that would be a divisive topic in the feminist community.
I respect your point, and you're obviously coming at it in a rational way. However I really think toxic masculinity is kind of a boogeyman. Many of my friends open up to me, and I open up to them. We talk about our emotions and comfort each other. I think that just because we don't do it to the same level that women do it, doesn't mean it's "toxic masculinity." It's just a different way men function. I really think for the most part it's like trying to get a lion to go vegetarian. It's just not in their nature.
I agree that some men don't cope with their emotions, but I think it's a at a way lower proportion than what the feminists think its it. We just do it in different way, or when we're alone with a friend rather than in a group.
I feel like you're willfully being obtuse with what I'm saying. I did not say what you say "men only have it worse BECAUSE of women?" I said men have it worse due to feminist groups.
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tahersyed
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LornaMae
4 years ago
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so much for being a right angle or even a cute angle :P
EXACTLY! What part do I have to clarify?
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bigbudchonga
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Feminist ≠ women. You have men who are perfectly fine with an ideology that fucks over other men too.
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LornaMae
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So, not much clarification, you mean?
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bigbudchonga
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I mean your original comment isn't accurate.