I actually appreciated this response, it was well-thought out. I will just reply with my thoughts and critiques:
I agree that guns cause a lot of pain and can be dangerous, but that really isn't the main issue for me. Many, many things can be misused and cause problems, but that usually signifies an underlying, greater problem. The fact that dangerous assholes use guns in horrible ways does not make guns any more or less than what they are: tools with deadly power.
I never discounted statistics, I took several statistics classes in college, I merely said that they don't tell everything. Stating the rate of gun crime in the US is valid, but your conclusions need to be backed up by a ton of data, no matter how valid is your source. Is the crime in the US mostly urban or rural? Minority or majority ethnic groups? Gang related? Alcohol related? I don't know, and I am guessing you don't either, that information may not even be available to the public. Unless you have a complete picture, how can you compare two completely different countries and point to gun laws as the definitive underlying cause? There are sooo many variables! Also, you didn't mention Switzerland; gun ownership is widespread and restrictions are more lax than in the US in many cases, but the crime rate is very low. Thus I think your conclusions about the relationship between gun ownership and crime in the US is flawed, or at least way over-simplified. I don't think the problem has anything to do with guns; I think we have a problem, and it is manifested in gun-related crimes. HUGE difference. If we took away guns tomorrow, the same people would start killing each other with shivs. We need to figure out the real problem, which probably has more to do with unemployed, under-educated men getting sucked into gangs, or a culture of "bad-assery" being cool (ridiculous), before we just start looking for an easy answer.
My Gandhi quote was supremely apt, because the US was also a British colony that was being exploited. When tensions started rising and people died in the Boston massacre, colonists started stock-piling weapons, and the British tried to disband the militias and take the weapons away. I don't want to over-extend the comparison, different continent, different time, different history, but this was my point: the American philosophy about government, self-defense, and self-reliance came out of a deep disdain for strong government and the deeply held conviction that when people have too much power, the little guy gets trampled. It seems silly now that the US is a huge and relatively successful country, but try to keep in mind that absolutely everyone here is descended from immigrants who arrived at the earliest in the 1600s, or they are natives who got screwed over by the immigrants. Everyone I know can trace a relative to either slavery, fresh off the boat from their home country (which apparently they thought was worth leaving, so they weren't exactly thriving there), western "frontier" people, or a native American reservation. I can trace relatives back to all four. Thus, even though it is completely academic and sort of sub-conscious, I think most Americans are very proud of our "scrappiness" and self-reliance. It's not like most of us really do fear our government or law enforcement, we just like having a safety net. Is that really odd? Guns are very effective tools at getting people to fuck off, and it's nice to have an ace in your back pocket so to speak. It maybe wrong, but still reassuring to many.
Lastly, the US is less urban than most first-world countries. Until pretty damn recently, people carried guns as a way of life, particularly while moving west. We still have huge game animals, and it was an absolute necessity for pioneer families into the 1800s. Of course, that is a laughably obsolete reason to own a gun now, but please don't discount the effect this fact has on the American psyche. Our great-great-grandfather needed a gun to survive, our great-grandfather used a gun, our grandfather learned how to shoot a gun. Trends don't just disappear overnight.
Perhaps a more valid comparison among countries with drastically different gun laws would be to examine the rate of "violent crimes", ignoring the number of deaths that resulted from these attacks. This is one interesting stat I found from The Telegraph (UK): "there are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the UK, making it the most violent place in Europe. Austria is second, with a rate of 1,677 per 100,000 people, followed by Sweden, Belgium, Finland and Holland. By comparison, America has an estimated rate of 466 violent crimes per 100,000 population." Not a US source, mind :)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html
Maybe more people would be alive with stricter gun laws, and I would certainly applaud that, but I don't want to upset the American way of life and take away a right which was an integral part of our early "revolutionary" days, and take away the right of people to protect against tyranny, unless I am convinced that violence, not just gun crimes, would diminish. And I am not convinced of this at all.
Sorry I wrote a book, I am not trying to look like a smart ass, I just love debating with people who are polite :) Feel free to disagree and persist in your opinion, that's very American ;)
No need to apologize for the length. There's no way to write a short text about this subject without oversimplifying things.
I think you're right. Most pro-gun arguments I read are "Get offa mah gunz!" with nothing more to add to the debate. But this one was worth the read.
The problem is certainly deeper than gun ownership. Like you say: "We need to figure out the real problem, which probably has more to do with unemployed, under-educated men getting sucked into gangs, or a culture of "bad-assery" being cool (ridiculous), before we just start looking for an easy answer."
People are scared of the future, they don't have any certainties anymore. Your job, your income and your safety are things you can lose in a matter of days. Even well-educated people don't get a guarantee to a good life. Maybe that gun gives them the feeling that they still have something to say. That they still count.
I feel that there are more political parties out there who want to cultivate those uncertainties rather than doing something about it. Fear is excellent for drawing voters to you.
But how can we solve all that? I hope you know, because I don't. ;)
Oh well, if you want, you can always move to Europe. We have exquisite wine, cheese, beer and chocolate. :D
What's your opinion on gun control?
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I actually appreciated this response, it was well-thought out. I will just reply with my thoughts and critiques:
I agree that guns cause a lot of pain and can be dangerous, but that really isn't the main issue for me. Many, many things can be misused and cause problems, but that usually signifies an underlying, greater problem. The fact that dangerous assholes use guns in horrible ways does not make guns any more or less than what they are: tools with deadly power.
I never discounted statistics, I took several statistics classes in college, I merely said that they don't tell everything. Stating the rate of gun crime in the US is valid, but your conclusions need to be backed up by a ton of data, no matter how valid is your source. Is the crime in the US mostly urban or rural? Minority or majority ethnic groups? Gang related? Alcohol related? I don't know, and I am guessing you don't either, that information may not even be available to the public. Unless you have a complete picture, how can you compare two completely different countries and point to gun laws as the definitive underlying cause? There are sooo many variables! Also, you didn't mention Switzerland; gun ownership is widespread and restrictions are more lax than in the US in many cases, but the crime rate is very low. Thus I think your conclusions about the relationship between gun ownership and crime in the US is flawed, or at least way over-simplified. I don't think the problem has anything to do with guns; I think we have a problem, and it is manifested in gun-related crimes. HUGE difference. If we took away guns tomorrow, the same people would start killing each other with shivs. We need to figure out the real problem, which probably has more to do with unemployed, under-educated men getting sucked into gangs, or a culture of "bad-assery" being cool (ridiculous), before we just start looking for an easy answer.
My Gandhi quote was supremely apt, because the US was also a British colony that was being exploited. When tensions started rising and people died in the Boston massacre, colonists started stock-piling weapons, and the British tried to disband the militias and take the weapons away. I don't want to over-extend the comparison, different continent, different time, different history, but this was my point: the American philosophy about government, self-defense, and self-reliance came out of a deep disdain for strong government and the deeply held conviction that when people have too much power, the little guy gets trampled. It seems silly now that the US is a huge and relatively successful country, but try to keep in mind that absolutely everyone here is descended from immigrants who arrived at the earliest in the 1600s, or they are natives who got screwed over by the immigrants. Everyone I know can trace a relative to either slavery, fresh off the boat from their home country (which apparently they thought was worth leaving, so they weren't exactly thriving there), western "frontier" people, or a native American reservation. I can trace relatives back to all four. Thus, even though it is completely academic and sort of sub-conscious, I think most Americans are very proud of our "scrappiness" and self-reliance. It's not like most of us really do fear our government or law enforcement, we just like having a safety net. Is that really odd? Guns are very effective tools at getting people to fuck off, and it's nice to have an ace in your back pocket so to speak. It maybe wrong, but still reassuring to many.
Lastly, the US is less urban than most first-world countries. Until pretty damn recently, people carried guns as a way of life, particularly while moving west. We still have huge game animals, and it was an absolute necessity for pioneer families into the 1800s. Of course, that is a laughably obsolete reason to own a gun now, but please don't discount the effect this fact has on the American psyche. Our great-great-grandfather needed a gun to survive, our great-grandfather used a gun, our grandfather learned how to shoot a gun. Trends don't just disappear overnight.
Perhaps a more valid comparison among countries with drastically different gun laws would be to examine the rate of "violent crimes", ignoring the number of deaths that resulted from these attacks. This is one interesting stat I found from The Telegraph (UK): "there are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the UK, making it the most violent place in Europe. Austria is second, with a rate of 1,677 per 100,000 people, followed by Sweden, Belgium, Finland and Holland. By comparison, America has an estimated rate of 466 violent crimes per 100,000 population." Not a US source, mind :)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html
Maybe more people would be alive with stricter gun laws, and I would certainly applaud that, but I don't want to upset the American way of life and take away a right which was an integral part of our early "revolutionary" days, and take away the right of people to protect against tyranny, unless I am convinced that violence, not just gun crimes, would diminish. And I am not convinced of this at all.
Sorry I wrote a book, I am not trying to look like a smart ass, I just love debating with people who are polite :) Feel free to disagree and persist in your opinion, that's very American ;)
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No need to apologize for the length. There's no way to write a short text about this subject without oversimplifying things.
I think you're right. Most pro-gun arguments I read are "Get offa mah gunz!" with nothing more to add to the debate. But this one was worth the read.
The problem is certainly deeper than gun ownership. Like you say: "We need to figure out the real problem, which probably has more to do with unemployed, under-educated men getting sucked into gangs, or a culture of "bad-assery" being cool (ridiculous), before we just start looking for an easy answer."
People are scared of the future, they don't have any certainties anymore. Your job, your income and your safety are things you can lose in a matter of days. Even well-educated people don't get a guarantee to a good life. Maybe that gun gives them the feeling that they still have something to say. That they still count.
I feel that there are more political parties out there who want to cultivate those uncertainties rather than doing something about it. Fear is excellent for drawing voters to you.
But how can we solve all that? I hope you know, because I don't. ;)
Oh well, if you want, you can always move to Europe. We have exquisite wine, cheese, beer and chocolate. :D