Interesting. I don't trust any of those translations.
It is still a choice, ultimately. You would just not be trying hard enough. You simply lack the will to try hard enough, just as I do not have the will to try hard enough to disbelieve my own truths if someone told me to do so. If you did not believe what you believe in to be true, you would not believe in it at all. Since you believe your current beliefs to be true, your mind rejects other beliefs that contradict them. It would take either an incredible amount of will or a suggestion of disbelief in order to change your beliefs. For example, if I started going around saying that I'm going to change my username to be "Clunk427", then it would be suggested in your mind that my username is going to be Clunk427. Then, if I continue to claim that my username will become Clunk427, you could eventually begin to think that my username will become Clunk427. You could believe this whether it ever becomes Clunk427 or not. If it were to end up never actually becoming Clunk427, and you believed that it would, then you would have held the wrong belief. However, if it did change, and you doubted that it would do so, then you also would have held the wrong belief.
I think it's best to just translate the original oneself using various translation methods and see what one makes of it all. I've done a bit of that. There's some variety here and there but my primary reasons for not believing it remain intact, version to version, method to method. I don't really have to split hairs; it's the general story itself that doesn't correspond with various truths I've seen evidence of.
What you were describing there regards the future though. Of course I'm open to the possibility that you might change your username. I'm simply not open to the belief that the comment I'm responding to doesn't say it was by Clunk42.
While the word "believe" might occasionally come out of me for practical reasons, I technically don't have any beliefs whatsoever as far as I'm concerned. There are only things I outright know (in my mind at least), strong speculations (what I might erroneously call "beliefs" for simplicity's sake), guesses, and things I don't know.
I wasn't even suggesting that those specific translations are what make you dislike Christianity. I was just stating my opinion about them. I both agree and disagree with what you say, since that could lead to personal biases entering your translation of the Bible, but the current translations of the Bible aren't necessarily trustworthy until proven to be so, and who best to prove them for yourself but yourself?
Religious beliefs are things that can only be proven in the future, just like the idea of me claiming to be changing my username. Eventually, they may be proven or disproven. Until then, it is a matter of belief. You can't prove Christianity currently, and you can't disprove Christianity currently. It's all a matter of belief. You believe that it's false; I believe that it's true. No amount of apologetics are ever going to be capable of swaying the beliefs until what is foretold in one of the religions becomes true. With Christianity, that would be the second coming of Christ, and with atheism, that would be an eternity of no massive religious events. Until something like that happens, none will be swayed by mere apologetics.
What I don't understand is this: why would you argue for something you are unsure of? If you do not know it to be true, then there's a very good chance that it's false. If it is false, then your entire argument is pointless at best, and entirely counterproductive at worst. Many people are like, "I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say I know what I say to be true," but, if you don't know what you say to be true, then your entire argument could be false. If you believe that everything you argue for could be false, then why would you argue for it? Figure it out for yourself before trying to figure it out for other people.
The way I debate depends on my certainty. If it's to the "outright truth" level, it usually looks as seen most often on IIN. I try to convince others of what I know for a fact.
Then there's the "strong speculation" level. For example, gravity is a function of curvature in spacetime, and mass affects said curvature. We've verified our understanding of gravity to the point of exhaustion, yet galaxies as a whole seem to behave as if they contain more mass than we visually observe.
This leaves two possibilities.
A: While we indeed 100% understand gravity locally, we've been oblivious to missing mathematical variables that only become apparent on certain scales, and gravity behaves differently in other areas.
B: There are no missing variables, gravity is behaving uniformly as we would expect, and there's actually no discrepancy as the missing mass is actually very much present but doesn't interact via the electromagnetic force. The gauge boson force carrier of this particular force is the photon (particle of light), so the missing mass is thusly visually invisible while gravitationally felt, the infamous "dark matter".
With current tech it doesn't seem we can overly decisively determine which is true for a while but there's a lot more supportive data for dark matter. So in these "strong speculation" situations I'm less attempting to convince anyone of anything so much as playing the Devil's advocate for the side I highly suspect will win out.
Then there were "guesses" (albeit educated ones). I don't even debate regarding these as they're dangerously close to the "belief" category. That said, I don't actually _believe_ my own guesses hereof so much as state that they're what I would guess if I had to. An example would be my guessing that the many worlds interpretation is correct. True randomness can't logically exist. So if wave functions are truly collapsing at apparent random and without any hidden variables to dictate the result, the likely explanation is that _all_ results happened and there was never a random _choice_ that had to be made, but there's no actual supportive data of this yet.
Then there are things I straight up don't know at all. For example, whatever the mother universe is, that which contains all budded universes and/or simulations, I have no idea if it would be digital or analogue.
I agree with much of what you've said but it isn't true that we have to verify religions in the future. Not everything is like the Book of Revelation; Christianity has already inaccurately described the past, often flying in the face of facts that fit my first, strongest category of certainty.
How has it inaccurately described the past, though? The only types of things that I've seen are like, "The armor that Goliath supposedly wore didn't actually exist at that point in history." I say, it could have existed at that point in history; you would have to have been around to know for certain.
I almost don't even know where to begin. To be honest, there's a much shorter list of events in the Bible that _were_ true or at least quite likely true. The majority, while sometimes interesting, is about like reading The Lord of the Rings or something.
The description of the creation of the Earth, the creation of humans, sexes, animals, the first civilizations, etc. is all at odds with reality. The only real escape from this is to allot so much symbolism that I could just as easily use to make any creation story true, and at that point it has nothing over any of the others or even something I made up myself.
I don't even think it's symbolic. I think that what a lot of people seem to forget about is the fact that God made the Garden of Eden on Earth. It never says in the story where He puts the animals that He created on Earth; it simply says that He created them all. It is certainly possible that every single animal variety to ever exist on Earth existed in the Garden of Eden first. We can neither prove nor disprove that theory, since humans have been banished from the Garden of Eden. How do you suggest that the order and method in which humans and genders were originally created has been proven contrary to that shown in the Bible? I ask the same question about the very first civilizations; civilizations that existed so long ago that almost every single relic we could have of them is gone.
Thoughts on cancel culture
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Interesting. I don't trust any of those translations.
It is still a choice, ultimately. You would just not be trying hard enough. You simply lack the will to try hard enough, just as I do not have the will to try hard enough to disbelieve my own truths if someone told me to do so. If you did not believe what you believe in to be true, you would not believe in it at all. Since you believe your current beliefs to be true, your mind rejects other beliefs that contradict them. It would take either an incredible amount of will or a suggestion of disbelief in order to change your beliefs. For example, if I started going around saying that I'm going to change my username to be "Clunk427", then it would be suggested in your mind that my username is going to be Clunk427. Then, if I continue to claim that my username will become Clunk427, you could eventually begin to think that my username will become Clunk427. You could believe this whether it ever becomes Clunk427 or not. If it were to end up never actually becoming Clunk427, and you believed that it would, then you would have held the wrong belief. However, if it did change, and you doubted that it would do so, then you also would have held the wrong belief.
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S0UNDS_WEIRD
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I think it's best to just translate the original oneself using various translation methods and see what one makes of it all. I've done a bit of that. There's some variety here and there but my primary reasons for not believing it remain intact, version to version, method to method. I don't really have to split hairs; it's the general story itself that doesn't correspond with various truths I've seen evidence of.
What you were describing there regards the future though. Of course I'm open to the possibility that you might change your username. I'm simply not open to the belief that the comment I'm responding to doesn't say it was by Clunk42.
While the word "believe" might occasionally come out of me for practical reasons, I technically don't have any beliefs whatsoever as far as I'm concerned. There are only things I outright know (in my mind at least), strong speculations (what I might erroneously call "beliefs" for simplicity's sake), guesses, and things I don't know.
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Clunk42
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I wasn't even suggesting that those specific translations are what make you dislike Christianity. I was just stating my opinion about them. I both agree and disagree with what you say, since that could lead to personal biases entering your translation of the Bible, but the current translations of the Bible aren't necessarily trustworthy until proven to be so, and who best to prove them for yourself but yourself?
Religious beliefs are things that can only be proven in the future, just like the idea of me claiming to be changing my username. Eventually, they may be proven or disproven. Until then, it is a matter of belief. You can't prove Christianity currently, and you can't disprove Christianity currently. It's all a matter of belief. You believe that it's false; I believe that it's true. No amount of apologetics are ever going to be capable of swaying the beliefs until what is foretold in one of the religions becomes true. With Christianity, that would be the second coming of Christ, and with atheism, that would be an eternity of no massive religious events. Until something like that happens, none will be swayed by mere apologetics.
What I don't understand is this: why would you argue for something you are unsure of? If you do not know it to be true, then there's a very good chance that it's false. If it is false, then your entire argument is pointless at best, and entirely counterproductive at worst. Many people are like, "I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say I know what I say to be true," but, if you don't know what you say to be true, then your entire argument could be false. If you believe that everything you argue for could be false, then why would you argue for it? Figure it out for yourself before trying to figure it out for other people.
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S0UNDS_WEIRD
2 years ago
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The way I debate depends on my certainty. If it's to the "outright truth" level, it usually looks as seen most often on IIN. I try to convince others of what I know for a fact.
Then there's the "strong speculation" level. For example, gravity is a function of curvature in spacetime, and mass affects said curvature. We've verified our understanding of gravity to the point of exhaustion, yet galaxies as a whole seem to behave as if they contain more mass than we visually observe.
This leaves two possibilities.
A: While we indeed 100% understand gravity locally, we've been oblivious to missing mathematical variables that only become apparent on certain scales, and gravity behaves differently in other areas.
B: There are no missing variables, gravity is behaving uniformly as we would expect, and there's actually no discrepancy as the missing mass is actually very much present but doesn't interact via the electromagnetic force. The gauge boson force carrier of this particular force is the photon (particle of light), so the missing mass is thusly visually invisible while gravitationally felt, the infamous "dark matter".
With current tech it doesn't seem we can overly decisively determine which is true for a while but there's a lot more supportive data for dark matter. So in these "strong speculation" situations I'm less attempting to convince anyone of anything so much as playing the Devil's advocate for the side I highly suspect will win out.
Then there were "guesses" (albeit educated ones). I don't even debate regarding these as they're dangerously close to the "belief" category. That said, I don't actually _believe_ my own guesses hereof so much as state that they're what I would guess if I had to. An example would be my guessing that the many worlds interpretation is correct. True randomness can't logically exist. So if wave functions are truly collapsing at apparent random and without any hidden variables to dictate the result, the likely explanation is that _all_ results happened and there was never a random _choice_ that had to be made, but there's no actual supportive data of this yet.
Then there are things I straight up don't know at all. For example, whatever the mother universe is, that which contains all budded universes and/or simulations, I have no idea if it would be digital or analogue.
I agree with much of what you've said but it isn't true that we have to verify religions in the future. Not everything is like the Book of Revelation; Christianity has already inaccurately described the past, often flying in the face of facts that fit my first, strongest category of certainty.
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Clunk42
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How has it inaccurately described the past, though? The only types of things that I've seen are like, "The armor that Goliath supposedly wore didn't actually exist at that point in history." I say, it could have existed at that point in history; you would have to have been around to know for certain.
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I almost don't even know where to begin. To be honest, there's a much shorter list of events in the Bible that _were_ true or at least quite likely true. The majority, while sometimes interesting, is about like reading The Lord of the Rings or something.
The description of the creation of the Earth, the creation of humans, sexes, animals, the first civilizations, etc. is all at odds with reality. The only real escape from this is to allot so much symbolism that I could just as easily use to make any creation story true, and at that point it has nothing over any of the others or even something I made up myself.
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Clunk42
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I don't even think it's symbolic. I think that what a lot of people seem to forget about is the fact that God made the Garden of Eden on Earth. It never says in the story where He puts the animals that He created on Earth; it simply says that He created them all. It is certainly possible that every single animal variety to ever exist on Earth existed in the Garden of Eden first. We can neither prove nor disprove that theory, since humans have been banished from the Garden of Eden. How do you suggest that the order and method in which humans and genders were originally created has been proven contrary to that shown in the Bible? I ask the same question about the very first civilizations; civilizations that existed so long ago that almost every single relic we could have of them is gone.