I was in school back when they celebrated all holidays based on whatever was considered the most popular traditions. Christmas, no hanukkah or kwaanza, Halloween, Easter, Thanksgiving, all that. Then I was lucky enough to hit that 'sensitivity' transition where they started calling it a holiday party, and banned Halloween all together, and made us learn about all religions and cultures, and stuck in the token hanukkah and kwaanza song. I HATED it. I wished they kept it all out of school because I wasn't religious and I didn't want any part of any of it. I did enjoy Halloween though. But Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Halloween or Thanksgiving, so we can't have those either. I personally don't see much of a religious connection to either of those holidays as far as what they have become in modern times especially but I guess some people do.
I can't see how it's possible to fairly promote all beliefs because it's impossible to include non-belief in there, isn't it? Is there an anti-Christmas song? lol that sounds pretty funny actually. But an anti-Christmas song could offend Christians. An anti-Halloween costume would be showing up naked, I guess. It would never end, so I'm in support of none of it being in school whatsoever.
Well maybe you should quit being butthurt that some people believe in things and get the fuck over it. I'm not religious either but I find it interesting to learn about other cultures, and you're never gonna fucking make everyone happy.
I screwed up in my post, I explained it to disthing below. I didn't mean to say I disapproved of learning about religions and cultures, what I meant to say (and failed miserably at) was that I disapprove of participating in or honoring any religious stuff.
Argh, looks like I'm just fucking shit up all over IIN today, all thanks to screaming mouth pain. It's quite distracting.
I feel like it's not necessarily a bad thing to have in schools because we do live in such a multicultural society and it's blending more and more every year. If it's presented in an objective fashion with thought given to secularism as well (Hell, Winter Wonderland is a secular Christmas song, right?? :P and Christmas used to be a pagan holiday anyway... bet it was more fun. Drunken orgies with them crazy Romans) I feel it's beneficial to kids because it teaches them to accept and get along with people who think differently from them.
I understand your point, but I think religious education is a good thing to have at school. That doesn't mean religious promotion or celebration, though. I think it's important to deliver that kind of information to children in an objective way.
A secular song doesn't have to be an anti-religious song, just as religious songs aren't usually anti-atheist. "Silent Night, Holy Night, let the non-believers burn in hell" isn't a carol I've ever come across. Some religious songs are great, and if they are taught in schools they should come with the disclaimer *this is a song people who believe in X wrote. I don't see a problem with that.
It is possible to educate about a number of belief systems including non-religion. There isn't enough time in the world to cover them all, but then we don't learn about every second of history the world over when studying History, do we? It's not about 'fairly promoting all beliefs', it's about choosing what information will be most useful in educating a child about the world around them and the society they're in. Good or bad, religion is still a huge factor in many people's lives and it'd be wrong to pretend otherwise.
I screwed up, I didn't mean that I didn't approve of studying religions and culture in general but it came out that way, huh? Sometimes I type faster than I think! Note to self: proofread!
I just disapprove of honoring or celebrating any religious traditions in school. Learning facts, fine. But I don't want to participate in anything religious to any degree.
Since a public school is a government institution, they aren't supposed to promote any 1 religion more than another. If they do x for one, they have to do x for all. They should just do nothing special for all and avoid hassle and infringing on anyone's rights. No songs, no rituals, no celebrating holidays. It's fine to learn who believes and celebrates what and why but to actually participate in it, glorify it and honor it is going too far.
I actually went to a Church of England junior school (government paid for) that had prayers and hymns integrated into our assemblies, and, as much as I didn't mind them, looking back it wasn't right to expect us to participate in worship. State schools should remain without religious affiliation.
However I actually think some celebration of holidays is good, it's just the way in which it's done. I mean, many people celebrate Christmas despite not being Christian - it's become as much a tradition amongst the secular as the religious, it's a cultural holiday as much as a religious one. So I don't see the harm in celebrating Christmas in a school environment, as long as they do it in the most inoffensive way possible.
Halloween too! I mean that's lost most of the spiritual meaning and is just a cultural holiday on which people dress up in crazy outfits and celebrate all things gothic and spooky.
My school also celebrated Harvest Festival, which is actually a pagan tradition sort of adopted by Christianity in some parts. The nice thing about that holiday was we celebrated it by donating items of food, and that food would then be sent to impoverished people around the world.
So these kinds of holidays can teach a lesson (such as charity), and they can be done without an emphasis on religion. There is something exciting for children about these annual events, when they can get involved in something different within a school environment. I think it would be a shame to lose that sense of fun.
Public schools banning Christmas carols?
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That would potentially offend the non-religious.
I was in school back when they celebrated all holidays based on whatever was considered the most popular traditions. Christmas, no hanukkah or kwaanza, Halloween, Easter, Thanksgiving, all that. Then I was lucky enough to hit that 'sensitivity' transition where they started calling it a holiday party, and banned Halloween all together, and made us learn about all religions and cultures, and stuck in the token hanukkah and kwaanza song. I HATED it. I wished they kept it all out of school because I wasn't religious and I didn't want any part of any of it. I did enjoy Halloween though. But Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Halloween or Thanksgiving, so we can't have those either. I personally don't see much of a religious connection to either of those holidays as far as what they have become in modern times especially but I guess some people do.
I can't see how it's possible to fairly promote all beliefs because it's impossible to include non-belief in there, isn't it? Is there an anti-Christmas song? lol that sounds pretty funny actually. But an anti-Christmas song could offend Christians. An anti-Halloween costume would be showing up naked, I guess. It would never end, so I'm in support of none of it being in school whatsoever.
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shade_ilmaendu
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disthing
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Well maybe you should quit being butthurt that some people believe in things and get the fuck over it. I'm not religious either but I find it interesting to learn about other cultures, and you're never gonna fucking make everyone happy.
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Whoa! I'm not butthurt :)
I screwed up in my post, I explained it to disthing below. I didn't mean to say I disapproved of learning about religions and cultures, what I meant to say (and failed miserably at) was that I disapprove of participating in or honoring any religious stuff.
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Argh, looks like I'm just fucking shit up all over IIN today, all thanks to screaming mouth pain. It's quite distracting.
I feel like it's not necessarily a bad thing to have in schools because we do live in such a multicultural society and it's blending more and more every year. If it's presented in an objective fashion with thought given to secularism as well (Hell, Winter Wonderland is a secular Christmas song, right?? :P and Christmas used to be a pagan holiday anyway... bet it was more fun. Drunken orgies with them crazy Romans) I feel it's beneficial to kids because it teaches them to accept and get along with people who think differently from them.
I understand your point, but I think religious education is a good thing to have at school. That doesn't mean religious promotion or celebration, though. I think it's important to deliver that kind of information to children in an objective way.
A secular song doesn't have to be an anti-religious song, just as religious songs aren't usually anti-atheist. "Silent Night, Holy Night, let the non-believers burn in hell" isn't a carol I've ever come across. Some religious songs are great, and if they are taught in schools they should come with the disclaimer *this is a song people who believe in X wrote. I don't see a problem with that.
It is possible to educate about a number of belief systems including non-religion. There isn't enough time in the world to cover them all, but then we don't learn about every second of history the world over when studying History, do we? It's not about 'fairly promoting all beliefs', it's about choosing what information will be most useful in educating a child about the world around them and the society they're in. Good or bad, religion is still a huge factor in many people's lives and it'd be wrong to pretend otherwise.
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LesserKnownCharacter
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I screwed up, I didn't mean that I didn't approve of studying religions and culture in general but it came out that way, huh? Sometimes I type faster than I think! Note to self: proofread!
I just disapprove of honoring or celebrating any religious traditions in school. Learning facts, fine. But I don't want to participate in anything religious to any degree.
Since a public school is a government institution, they aren't supposed to promote any 1 religion more than another. If they do x for one, they have to do x for all. They should just do nothing special for all and avoid hassle and infringing on anyone's rights. No songs, no rituals, no celebrating holidays. It's fine to learn who believes and celebrates what and why but to actually participate in it, glorify it and honor it is going too far.
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disthing
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I agree with you.
I actually went to a Church of England junior school (government paid for) that had prayers and hymns integrated into our assemblies, and, as much as I didn't mind them, looking back it wasn't right to expect us to participate in worship. State schools should remain without religious affiliation.
However I actually think some celebration of holidays is good, it's just the way in which it's done. I mean, many people celebrate Christmas despite not being Christian - it's become as much a tradition amongst the secular as the religious, it's a cultural holiday as much as a religious one. So I don't see the harm in celebrating Christmas in a school environment, as long as they do it in the most inoffensive way possible.
Halloween too! I mean that's lost most of the spiritual meaning and is just a cultural holiday on which people dress up in crazy outfits and celebrate all things gothic and spooky.
My school also celebrated Harvest Festival, which is actually a pagan tradition sort of adopted by Christianity in some parts. The nice thing about that holiday was we celebrated it by donating items of food, and that food would then be sent to impoverished people around the world.
So these kinds of holidays can teach a lesson (such as charity), and they can be done without an emphasis on religion. There is something exciting for children about these annual events, when they can get involved in something different within a school environment. I think it would be a shame to lose that sense of fun.