Yeah, I would probably think differently if I was brought up in their culture. That wouldn't make it ANY less wrong though. I simply refuse with every fiber of my being to believe that something such as killing babies was EVER alright.
Besides, we have developed a lot as a species, since the days of the Spartans, and I think our present-day morals are VASTLY superior to theirs.
Babies and children are still regularly slaughtered to this day.
War, desperation, slavery...it's alive and well.
In war, *intentional* (and unnecessary) crimes against babies and children are committed constantly, this has been true since the first wars ever and continues currently. One prominent modern example would be Hitler, but that's one you'd expect. Look into war crimes against children involving any other country and you'll be similarly shocked.
Desperation....well, look at modern Africa. Look at any desperate people ANYWHERE. People in the US sell their children, murder them or let them fall victim to severe abuse and neglect, many times for selfish reasons (addiction, money, to keep a partner). People in less fortunate places than the US do this even MORE, and there's far more of those places in this world!
Some equate abortion with killing babies. It's intentional, it's (overwhelmingly) unnecessary medically. Many countries think we're barbaric for allowing this.
If people always have, and continue to, slaughter, abuse and enslave children then obviously it's not universally wrong and it's also obvious that even people who "never" would harm a child suddenly CAN and DO hurt children (soldiers, desperate parents, etc).
Yes, sadly it is indeed true that infants are still regularly slaughtered to this day. All the other nasty stuff you speak of also indeed still happens.
There IS a difference with ancient Spartan society though. In their society, brutally killing infants was generally seen as perfectly acceptable. In our modern society - although it sadly DOES indeed sometimes happen - it is OVERWHELMINGLY not. Just ask a few random people in your area if they think brutally killing infants is OK. They will almost CERTAINLY say no, and rightly so.
The fact that brutal violence against infants still happens, does of course NOT automatically mean it is OK. Brutally killing infants is wrong no matter WHAT. It doesn't matter AT ALL what timeframe or culture it was, or how accepted it was. Wrong is wrong. Brutally killing children is wrong and frankly I despise ANYONE who thinks otherwise.
Do you honestly think that brutally killing a child can EVER be justified? Please tell me you don't.
"Certain moral values may indeed be fluid alright, but aren't certain things INHERENTLY right or wrong?"
This ^ is what you asked. You're trying to say that there's a moral "rock bottom" within everyone, and using infanticide as an example of universal wrongness, the shred of morality that EVERYONE *must* have. But, obviously, that's NOT true. It wasn't true historically and it's STILL not true. The main reasons keeping rates of infanticide low(er) now is legal abortion (ah hem...foeticide), birth control and social programs (welfare, etc). Not some moral enlightenment.
"The fact that infanticide frequently happened (and sometimes still happens) does NOT mean it isn't wrong."
That's your opinion. The FACT that it is widespread in history and still occurs proves that your view is not innate like you like to believe it is. I'm not even trying to change your opinion on infanticide. If you noticed I never even made a stance on it myself. I contest only that you're trying to say that just because you believe in this so strongly that everyone else must too. "It HAS to be true!!" (ah but it isn't, my dear)
Out of curiosity, what's the difference between a baby being killed vs any other innocent person? You've mentioned babies often but what about other people?
I happen to VERY strongly believe that certain things are inherently wrong. Killing children in my eyes is wrong for anyone, anywhere, in any time, in any culture, or for any reason. You will NEVER be able to convince me that killing children is OK in certain circumstances.
The fact that certain individuals, cultures, etc. thought (or think) otherwise (and they indeed do) means absolutely NOTHING to me. Killing children is ALWAYS wrong (I can't believe I even have to explain this). I don't give a damn if the perpetrators think they're justified in doing so.
I HATE moral relativism. Moral relativists don't seem to stand for... ANYTHING really. I mean, what kind of sick fuck are you anyway to justify infanticide? It disturbs me that people like you exist.
Morality doesn't exist in reality.
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Yeah, I would probably think differently if I was brought up in their culture. That wouldn't make it ANY less wrong though. I simply refuse with every fiber of my being to believe that something such as killing babies was EVER alright.
Besides, we have developed a lot as a species, since the days of the Spartans, and I think our present-day morals are VASTLY superior to theirs.
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wigsplitz
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Babies and children are still regularly slaughtered to this day.
War, desperation, slavery...it's alive and well.
In war, *intentional* (and unnecessary) crimes against babies and children are committed constantly, this has been true since the first wars ever and continues currently. One prominent modern example would be Hitler, but that's one you'd expect. Look into war crimes against children involving any other country and you'll be similarly shocked.
Desperation....well, look at modern Africa. Look at any desperate people ANYWHERE. People in the US sell their children, murder them or let them fall victim to severe abuse and neglect, many times for selfish reasons (addiction, money, to keep a partner). People in less fortunate places than the US do this even MORE, and there's far more of those places in this world!
Some equate abortion with killing babies. It's intentional, it's (overwhelmingly) unnecessary medically. Many countries think we're barbaric for allowing this.
If people always have, and continue to, slaughter, abuse and enslave children then obviously it's not universally wrong and it's also obvious that even people who "never" would harm a child suddenly CAN and DO hurt children (soldiers, desperate parents, etc).
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BLAh81
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Yes, sadly it is indeed true that infants are still regularly slaughtered to this day. All the other nasty stuff you speak of also indeed still happens.
There IS a difference with ancient Spartan society though. In their society, brutally killing infants was generally seen as perfectly acceptable. In our modern society - although it sadly DOES indeed sometimes happen - it is OVERWHELMINGLY not. Just ask a few random people in your area if they think brutally killing infants is OK. They will almost CERTAINLY say no, and rightly so.
The fact that brutal violence against infants still happens, does of course NOT automatically mean it is OK. Brutally killing infants is wrong no matter WHAT. It doesn't matter AT ALL what timeframe or culture it was, or how accepted it was. Wrong is wrong. Brutally killing children is wrong and frankly I despise ANYONE who thinks otherwise.
Do you honestly think that brutally killing a child can EVER be justified? Please tell me you don't.
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wigsplitz
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http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp058026
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide
The evidence does not support your theory that infanticide is universally and (OR) innately wrong.
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BLAh81
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BLAh81
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The fact that infanticide frequently happened (and sometimes still happens) does NOT mean it isn't wrong. It absolutely is. It is MORALLY dead wrong.
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wigsplitz
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"Certain moral values may indeed be fluid alright, but aren't certain things INHERENTLY right or wrong?"
This ^ is what you asked. You're trying to say that there's a moral "rock bottom" within everyone, and using infanticide as an example of universal wrongness, the shred of morality that EVERYONE *must* have. But, obviously, that's NOT true. It wasn't true historically and it's STILL not true. The main reasons keeping rates of infanticide low(er) now is legal abortion (ah hem...foeticide), birth control and social programs (welfare, etc). Not some moral enlightenment.
"The fact that infanticide frequently happened (and sometimes still happens) does NOT mean it isn't wrong."
That's your opinion. The FACT that it is widespread in history and still occurs proves that your view is not innate like you like to believe it is. I'm not even trying to change your opinion on infanticide. If you noticed I never even made a stance on it myself. I contest only that you're trying to say that just because you believe in this so strongly that everyone else must too. "It HAS to be true!!" (ah but it isn't, my dear)
Out of curiosity, what's the difference between a baby being killed vs any other innocent person? You've mentioned babies often but what about other people?
I happen to VERY strongly believe that certain things are inherently wrong. Killing children in my eyes is wrong for anyone, anywhere, in any time, in any culture, or for any reason. You will NEVER be able to convince me that killing children is OK in certain circumstances.
The fact that certain individuals, cultures, etc. thought (or think) otherwise (and they indeed do) means absolutely NOTHING to me. Killing children is ALWAYS wrong (I can't believe I even have to explain this). I don't give a damn if the perpetrators think they're justified in doing so.
I HATE moral relativism. Moral relativists don't seem to stand for... ANYTHING really. I mean, what kind of sick fuck are you anyway to justify infanticide? It disturbs me that people like you exist.