I agree that lying is saying something that is not true in the present tense, but maybe we have to differentiate between action and intention.
Like with your example "...I'm the president (just not yet though)" one could say you were lying about your intention for the future, but the action itself is not a lie because the future is never set in stone and according to some philosophers we can't even predict that the sun will rise tomorrow.
However with present tense (like in the OP's story) we can know if he's lying or not because what he claimed was in the present tense.
Group X IS plotting to take over, they MEAN to take over. He was lying about their intentions at the time, but not about what might happen in the future because we can't lie about the future because we don't KNOW what will happen. Just a thought :3
We DO know the sun is coming up tomorrow.
Things like this fall into common sense and reality.
Its like saying, if I died would the world just stop for everyone? NO it wouldn't.
It has been proven again and again that the Sun will come up tomorrow, actually since Earth evolved.
IF there were any reason the Sun would not come up and there is presently no evidence as per why it wouldn't, then this would be illogical and beyond the factual evidence we presently have.
I can explain it more clearly, but generally kids here, so I thought you didn't want me to bash 'philosophy' too much.
You've only really replied to a minor point that I made, which was only an example of the unpredictability that certain famous philosophers in the past believed. And to an extent, this IS true. You're right that we don't have current evidence that the sun won't rise tomorrow, but that doesn't mean there's not a slight chance that it won't happen for whatever reason that would be beyond us.
You obviously believe that the cycle of nature is constant and predictable, but others believe the opposite.
You didn't want to address my real point of the difference between action and intention?
And you can bash philosophy all you like, it doesn't stop it from existing in everything you do and think.
While we can predict that the sun will continue to rise (save for some cosmic catastrophe that we would be unable to forsee) the argument you used is fallacious. Don't rely on induction, it is too often faulty.
I would say rather we can predict the sun will rise tomorrow because we have observed the rotation of our planet and know that every 24 hours (roughly) it makes one full rotation, thus as long as the planet is rotating it shall turn to the sun every day.
ok I agree, that's clearer.
I did say 'evidence' I just didn't elaborate on these said 'facts'
Looking back, both what you said and I said still help the OP.
I mostly wanted to point it out because I could see that explanation confusing someone in a debate. It just sounded a lot like what my Epistemology professor used as an example when we were talking about induction. Because it's easy to say the sun will rise every day because it always has, and it's technically correct. Problem is people try to apply that sort of reasoning to things that wouldn't make sense.
Actually after I posted I then re-read over what I wrote and what you wrote and actually stared at the post for a while.
I honestly agree with what you said.
Thankyou for pointing this out to me.
I'd also be happy for other constructive criticisms at any time (ie other posts you ever see)
I understand that some do take offense (or defense as I have quickly done incorrectly) to such things. But in reality I enjoy learning. Sometimes it takes me a few minutes to see the light though! So bare with me on that.
Lying, as I've always understood the definition, has little to do with "at the present time".
Just because someone is coming towards you with a pair of scissors doesn't mean they're trying to kill although it APPEARS that way just as it appeared the man was lying.
Given a little more time, you'd see that they're just trying to cut your hair just as the man in my example was telling of a future evil to come.
It's the truth, it's just a truth that hasn't come to fruition yet.
But the statement was not true at that time.
No one was going to come and take over.
If you were able to get a truthful answer out of the person, he would have said, well that's a lie since no one is coming, UNLESS I organize it further.
If the man suddenly had a heart attack and died before he got to the other side, then it would be no doubt that he lied, as no one came! Nor were they going to.
A lie cannot be made into a truth in my view.
What this story is in fact is coniving, scheming, and basically a lie at that time. EVEN if it then came true later on.
You may need to explain it more logical detail if you don't feel I've got it.
Presently I say > Lie
Justice outside the moral good
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I agree that lying is saying something that is not true in the present tense, but maybe we have to differentiate between action and intention.
Like with your example "...I'm the president (just not yet though)" one could say you were lying about your intention for the future, but the action itself is not a lie because the future is never set in stone and according to some philosophers we can't even predict that the sun will rise tomorrow.
However with present tense (like in the OP's story) we can know if he's lying or not because what he claimed was in the present tense.
Group X IS plotting to take over, they MEAN to take over. He was lying about their intentions at the time, but not about what might happen in the future because we can't lie about the future because we don't KNOW what will happen. Just a thought :3
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I respectfully understand your (wrong) point.
We DO know the sun is coming up tomorrow.
Things like this fall into common sense and reality.
Its like saying, if I died would the world just stop for everyone? NO it wouldn't.
It has been proven again and again that the Sun will come up tomorrow, actually since Earth evolved.
IF there were any reason the Sun would not come up and there is presently no evidence as per why it wouldn't, then this would be illogical and beyond the factual evidence we presently have.
I can explain it more clearly, but generally kids here, so I thought you didn't want me to bash 'philosophy' too much.
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shade_ilmaendu
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You've only really replied to a minor point that I made, which was only an example of the unpredictability that certain famous philosophers in the past believed. And to an extent, this IS true. You're right that we don't have current evidence that the sun won't rise tomorrow, but that doesn't mean there's not a slight chance that it won't happen for whatever reason that would be beyond us.
You obviously believe that the cycle of nature is constant and predictable, but others believe the opposite.
You didn't want to address my real point of the difference between action and intention?
And you can bash philosophy all you like, it doesn't stop it from existing in everything you do and think.
While we can predict that the sun will continue to rise (save for some cosmic catastrophe that we would be unable to forsee) the argument you used is fallacious. Don't rely on induction, it is too often faulty.
I would say rather we can predict the sun will rise tomorrow because we have observed the rotation of our planet and know that every 24 hours (roughly) it makes one full rotation, thus as long as the planet is rotating it shall turn to the sun every day.
Just thought I'd point that out. :3
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ok I agree, that's clearer.
I did say 'evidence' I just didn't elaborate on these said 'facts'
Looking back, both what you said and I said still help the OP.
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I mostly wanted to point it out because I could see that explanation confusing someone in a debate. It just sounded a lot like what my Epistemology professor used as an example when we were talking about induction. Because it's easy to say the sun will rise every day because it always has, and it's technically correct. Problem is people try to apply that sort of reasoning to things that wouldn't make sense.
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Actually after I posted I then re-read over what I wrote and what you wrote and actually stared at the post for a while.
I honestly agree with what you said.
Thankyou for pointing this out to me.
I'd also be happy for other constructive criticisms at any time (ie other posts you ever see)
I understand that some do take offense (or defense as I have quickly done incorrectly) to such things. But in reality I enjoy learning. Sometimes it takes me a few minutes to see the light though! So bare with me on that.
Lying, as I've always understood the definition, has little to do with "at the present time".
Just because someone is coming towards you with a pair of scissors doesn't mean they're trying to kill although it APPEARS that way just as it appeared the man was lying.
Given a little more time, you'd see that they're just trying to cut your hair just as the man in my example was telling of a future evil to come.
It's the truth, it's just a truth that hasn't come to fruition yet.
;)
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But the statement was not true at that time.
No one was going to come and take over.
If you were able to get a truthful answer out of the person, he would have said, well that's a lie since no one is coming, UNLESS I organize it further.
If the man suddenly had a heart attack and died before he got to the other side, then it would be no doubt that he lied, as no one came! Nor were they going to.
A lie cannot be made into a truth in my view.
What this story is in fact is coniving, scheming, and basically a lie at that time. EVEN if it then came true later on.
You may need to explain it more logical detail if you don't feel I've got it.
Presently I say > Lie