Is this rape?

I'm not asking for legal opinion.... just your general impression.

Say Pat pretends to be passed out. Pat is fully aware, competent, not intoxicated, not asleep. Kris sees Pat passed out and decides to go for a grope. Pat remains motionless. Kris keeps going, undressing Pat and eventually having intercourse with "unconcious" Pat.

Please discuss! Thanks.

Is Kris a rapist? Is Pat wrong somehow? Would it matter why Pat was acting passed out? (provided the reason is NOT out of fear or force)

kris is a rapist.	291
kris is not a rapist.	119

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Comments ( 28 )

dom180

9 years ago | pl

I can't separate my general impression from my legal opinion. Rape is a legal term with a very well articulated definition, and I don't have a "general impression" of rape beyond that legal definition. In my mind, rape *is* the legal definition. I'm also going to assume Pat is a girl and Kris is a boy even though their sexes and genders aren't specified in the OP and don't affect my opinion, purely in order to make my comment easier to read. With that disclaimer in mind:

She didn't give any indication that she was consenting, so it was rape. It doesn't matter to me why Pat was pretending to be passed out, because Kris believed she was passed out and he still did it. No amount of acting vulnerable could make Kris do what he did. Kris thought he was having sex with an unconsenting person. He believed himself to be committing a crime when he did it. That's pretty strong evidence that he's a dangerous person.

Perhaps there is a difference between "Kris raped Pat" and "Pat was raped by Kris". Kris definitely raped Pat, because he had sex with her when she didn't give any indication of consent. I don't think that is a debatable point. However, if Pat was fully lucid and in no way felt pressured or scared Pat probably didn't feel like it was rape. It's impossible to guess with any accuracy what Pat felt without knowing her motivation, though, so I wouldn't put words in her mouth.

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- Couman
  
  9 years ago
  
  Interesting comment about not being able to separate the legal definition from your general idea of what rape is. I feel the same way, but there are a few exceptions. In cases where someone actually did consent but the law says it doesn't count I don't really think of that as rape. For example if Kris *previously* told Pat "I would love it if you had sex with me while I'm unconscious.". That probably wouldn't work legally, but it's good enough for me. Or on the other hand in some places (such as England, I think?) if Kris is a woman, she can't commit rape no matter what, but I don't agree with that.
  
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  - dom180
    
    9 years ago
    
    I agree that if Pat previously (and very recently - like, immediately before the sex and while Pat was sober) told Kris "I would love it if you had sex with me while I'm unconscious" it would be okay, because I think that qualifies as consent.
    
    Looking back, I over-simplified my relationship with the law. I live in England myself, and I'm not sure about how legal discussion of female-on-male rape works exactly. The law is very specific about "penetration of the victim", so I'm almost certain that women can be convicted for rape if they penetrate another person with a "penis-like object" (a dildo, fingers, whatever). But if a women forces a man to penetrate her, I believe this would be considered sexual and not rape assault in the eyes of the law. I completely agree with you that this is bullshit and sexist.
    
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handsignals

9 years ago

Was expecting to see 404 when I clicked on this.

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hauntedbysandwiches

9 years ago

Considering KRIS didn't know Pat was faking being passed out, I'd consider this an act of rape.

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Fall_leaves

9 years ago

Pretending to be unconscious or not this is rape. If she didn't give her consent to have sex, then this wasn't mutual.

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[Old Memory]

9 years ago

I wouldn't say it was rape, but I'd say the guy had rape as his intent so is a rapist, if that makes sense?

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stevieo

9 years ago

well pat would't be there if pat did't expet it to happen.but then again i dont know the whole story i need mor detail.but to wat u gave me kris is a rapist cause he would of done it either way thats wat u telling us

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Couman

9 years ago

I said yes. Though, I think an argument could be made that it was only attempted rape.

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[Old Memory]

9 years ago

I am hung up on why Pat still pretended to be unconscious.

Yeah, I'd say rape, but am confused why on earth Pat would remain motionless and not say anything. Kris is a "rapist", but I think Pat is in the wrong as well. He/she could have EASILY shut down the situation by just a simple opening of the eyes and a "hey what they hell dude"

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- Couman
  
  9 years ago
  
  It seems to me Pat is effectively consenting by continuing to play unconscious while Kris's actions escalate. And indeed that Pay wanted it to continue would seem the most logical explanation. But anyway, Kris doesn't know this, and so is still guilty.
  
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Shrunk

9 years ago

I'm guessing you mean that 'kris' didn't know 'pat' was faking, in which case morally yes that is rape but legally no. And 'pat' is not very moral, either...

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NSOV

9 years ago

Kris is a rapist, and anyone who says otherwise is frankly an idiot.

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TheBunnie

9 years ago

Unfortunately I'm not sure what to vote because I would think it depends on the relationship between Kris and Pat and how Pat felt on the situation. If Pat was dating Kris and trusted him and didn't have any problem with it, then it wouldn't be rape (although, like the others commenting I wouldn't know why she'd pretend to be unconscious, unless she was gauging what he'd do on his own). If Pat is uncomfortable with the situation regardless of their relationship I would say it was possibly rape.

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RainbowDischarge

9 years ago

The names given are throwing me off a bit. I kept picturing my boyfriend in the scenario cuz his name is Pat and Kris Jenner (mother of the Kardashians). Weird. I just imagined Kris Jenner raping my boyfriend..... So is Kris the dude, or is Pat?

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- RainbowDischarge
  
  9 years ago
  
  or wait they could both guys or both chicks.
  
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Amy347

9 years ago

she never said no.. when she clearly could have and had the ability to say no. I say not rape.

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- Fall_leaves
  
  9 years ago
  
  So if I'm sunbathing and a guy comes up to me and starts to fondle my bidness and then put his penis in me, but I say nothing and do nothing to initiate any contact or stop him then that's ok?
  
  So I have to say no and tell him to stop for him not to put his penis in me? So by your logic it's not rape if you do nothing to stop it even if you don't initiate it? So as a woman I should have to say no and stop a person from coming onto me? So if I'm attacked in a parking lot by gunpoint and raped if I didn't say no then it wasn't rape?
  
  Why should I have to tell someone to not put their penis inside me if I've done nothing to initiate any sexual contact with them? It's my body? I don't initiate sex with a guy unless it's mutual, in this scenario it's not mutual, did she consent? Did pat consent? No
  
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  - [Old Memory]
    
    9 years ago
    
    I don't really understand how this situation could be rape because why would somebody not say no if they weren't wanting it to happen. Letting somebody do something seems the same as consenting to it.
    
    At the same time the story needs more information because it doesn't really make sense. It seems like Kris may have had intent to be a rapist but ended up having a willing victim which made it concentual by default.
    
    Also it's unclear if Kris may have even thought Pat wanted sex because Pat did not react negatively giving the impression that sex was desired.
    
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    - Fall_leaves
      
      9 years ago
      
      Think of it this way. I stayed over at a guy friends house a couple years bacK. We slept in the same bed, nothing out of the unusual, we had a platonic relationship. I started to fall asleep and was semi conscious when I felt him slip his hand down my pajama bottoms. I rolled over and scooted to the edge of the bed, thinking he got the idea that I wasn't interested.
      
      I proceeded to fall asleep and then woke up to him pressing his erection up against my back, he wasn't taking the hint. I layed there the rest of the night pretending to sleep, thoroughly disturbed but I didn't say anything to him. He started to pull my pants off and I laid there, mostly in disbelief that one of my closest friends could actually take advantage of me in my sleep. I didn't say no to what happened after and idk if it would have made a difference if I had. By no means did I enjoy him doing any of this.
      
      I blamed myself for what happened but I shouldn't have to tell someone not to physically violate my body, conscious or pretending to be unconscious.
      
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      - [Old Memory]
        
        9 years ago
        
        That's an unusual scenario. Why didn't you say something to him? Were you trying to test what he would do? It does seem he crossed the line there. Unless he somehow was under the impression you wanted sex he should have known that wasn't appropriate.
        
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Johnnytherat

9 years ago

this is just a bunch of hogwash shame on all of you for encouraging this BS wheres the serious topics like iin im a virgin at age 14?

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- noid
  
  9 years ago
  
  Ha
  
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KeddersPrincess

9 years ago

Does Kris know Pat is pretending? Difficult question because if Kris knows that Pat is pretending and she doesn't say anything to him (and I'm going to assume this is her boyfriend or some kind of relationship close to it) then he might get the impression that she doesn't mind it and wants it to keep going. If he thinks she is unconscious and decides to touch her, then I would consider that rape because she is unable to consent.

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bleach_baby

9 years ago

How does he know she's only pretending?

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thegypsysailor

9 years ago

Are these both guys, gals or some combination of the two? Pat can be either as can Kris. Strange choice of names

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- RoseIsabella
  
  9 years ago
  
  I think that was OP's point in choosing the unisex names
  
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Tommythecat.

9 years ago

Pat is an unusual reverse rapist of sorts.

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Are You Normal?

Is this rape?