It's too simplistic a question. It's possible to believe in aspects of religion (and Jesus) without following every single word of the Bible to the letter of the law (nobody does that, not even the most devoutly religious).
You might get some atheists saying it's a book of lies, that it's all made up, but that is a crazy viewpoint too.
I believe that stories of magical and heroic deeds (which had previously been attributed to others, as you will know if you've looked beyond the Bible) came to be attributed to one figure (this often happens in cultures with an oral tradition). I can believe that figure lived. I can believe major events of the Bible occurred and that is a document of huge historical importance.
But I can also accept that in a 2000-year-old game of Chinese whispers played by many people who don't even speak the same language, there is the teensiest, tiniest possibility that it's not 100% completely, entirely, and absolutely free of even the most minor of errors.
"It's possible to believe in aspects of religion (and Jesus) without following every single word of the Bible to the letter of the law (nobody does that, not even the most devoutly religious)."
I disagree. If you believe your God is PERFECT, you CANNOT throw out some of the rules, simply because you don't like them, such as killing disobedient children (something Jesus approved of btw).
I'll have to disagree. I think following the Bible to the letter of the law is such a difficult and unusual thing to do that people have written books about their attempt to do so. For instance, A. J. Jacobs with "The Year of Living Biblically: One Man's Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible".
I know people who "believe" but I don't know anyone who follows the bible literally and entirely. I would never say they are non-believers, though.
It is indeed virtually impossible to follow the Bible entirely, since it contains literally HUNDREDS of contradictions (quite a lot of which involve the most crucial aspects of Christianity btw). See: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
"I know people who "believe" but I don't know anyone who follows the bible literally and entirely. I would never say they are non-believers, though."
Same here. I also wouldn't say they are non-believers. What I WOULD say however, is that they are being kinda illogical. Don't they believe a PERFECT being inspired their book?
As an irreligious person I think I can cherry-pick the good stuff (yes that is subjective, I know) from the Bible (as from any book) WITHOUT being hypocritical. However, when you claim to follow a specific religion, I honestly think you HAVE to follow EVERYTHING in said religion (which isn't even possible in Christianity's case, because of the contradictions).
It's an interesting point. I suppose everybody has to find a way of dealing with the texts of their religion. A friend of the family (who is a Methodist minister) always recommends a common-sense approach (as opposed to an anal and literal approach). I'd never thought about it until now but there's a relationship between holy books and those who follow the religion and it's a different relationship for each person. It's personal.
Strangely, I suppose, there can be a relationship even between atheists and holy books. Parts of the bible make a lot of sense to me. Why would I choose to ignore them just because the book as a whole alludes to some things that I don't believe? There are parts of Islam, and many Eastern religions that I feel similarly about.
I do believe there's a global truth and many religions tap into it, but are also abused by writers who want power, control or a tourniquet for their insecurities.
I think what is important to remember is that a good part of the Bible is about how to live together in harmony, in communtities where there is respect and consideration for others and how to live as a family and raise your children to respect you. Many of the other stories teach you to believe and have faith in God. Almost all religions promote this so there must be some sense in it at least.
"Strangely, I suppose, there can be a relationship even between atheists and holy books. Parts of the bible make a lot of sense to me. Why would I choose to ignore them just because the book as a whole alludes to some things that I don't believe? There are parts of Islam, and many Eastern religions that I feel similarly about."
I totally agree. For example, though I despise Christianity as a whole as an absurd and immoral religion, I think (tiny) bits of the Bible contain precious gems of wisdom.
From my studies, I've come to conclude that the bible does have some stories of historical accuracy, and a few books are transferred from oral traditions as parables but that many books are of unknown origin and have either been fabricated or altered for the purposes of power, I believe most of this alteration has been done during the Medieval Era and some of the fabrication was an attempt to tame what was a very chaotic society. Religious authorites that I spoke to once upon a time attest that the old testament only originally was the ten commandments and the stories of Moses but nothing more. More was just added.
I hold science in high regard, but even the records of scientific discoveries are not immune from human tampering for gains. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. The first example that comes to mind is companies that pay off their scientists to try to find "conclusive" discoveries in support of their product or cause that they could use to dissuade the public from suspicion.
I couldn't agree more. I have seen some global abuses in research (particularly healthcare) for which people should hang. I don't normally believe in the death penalty but if your actions knowingly bring about the deaths of tens of thousands of people then it doesn't matter if you're a dictator or a businessman in a suit.
I agree with you about the alteration to the texts and when that happened. Occasionally you can see where it's happened.
I'm fascinated by the books of all religions but the bible is a social history as well as historic in the wider sense.
One thing I'm always interested in is when science and the bible work together. Scientifically, we can pretty much prove the great flood, determine where it happened, and even why. If I was religious, though, I might feel squinky about science giving scientific backing to things in the bible.
I know there's absolutely no need for the two spheres of thought to be opposed (and it's my personal opinion that they have the same root) but that's the way it sometimes seems. I wish more people approached it like you and I. I don't think we attack each other about it at all, and I'm always interested in what you say because you come at it calmly and without suspicion.
I'm glad someone else sees it the way I do.
I believe that my mentality stems from my belief that humans are entirely and eternally flawed and by extension, anything they create will be flawed as well. On that account, whether or not my church or collegues agree with me, I'm nonetheless always willing to accept that anything created by the hands of a human is fallible no matter how air tight it may seem.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, that religion and science as well as every academia can live together in harmony. All knowledge is wonderful. Personally, I see science (by which I mean the observable processes of nature and the possibilities of which) as God's gift to man as a means to understand his creation. Like an artist showing his work to.the world, there's a little bit of God and the universe in everything. I'm sure I don't have to explain to you the wonders of the mechanisms of cells and how they bear such similarity to what has been invented by humans...
Whether you chock it up to a Supreme Creator or to the magic that is in nature in and of itself is your personal choice that I feel no need to judge. I'm just happy that I'm not the only person that can appreciate both "worlds".
Is it normal to wonder why people don't believe in Jesus?
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It's too simplistic a question. It's possible to believe in aspects of religion (and Jesus) without following every single word of the Bible to the letter of the law (nobody does that, not even the most devoutly religious).
You might get some atheists saying it's a book of lies, that it's all made up, but that is a crazy viewpoint too.
I believe that stories of magical and heroic deeds (which had previously been attributed to others, as you will know if you've looked beyond the Bible) came to be attributed to one figure (this often happens in cultures with an oral tradition). I can believe that figure lived. I can believe major events of the Bible occurred and that is a document of huge historical importance.
But I can also accept that in a 2000-year-old game of Chinese whispers played by many people who don't even speak the same language, there is the teensiest, tiniest possibility that it's not 100% completely, entirely, and absolutely free of even the most minor of errors.
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BLAh81
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"It's possible to believe in aspects of religion (and Jesus) without following every single word of the Bible to the letter of the law (nobody does that, not even the most devoutly religious)."
I disagree. If you believe your God is PERFECT, you CANNOT throw out some of the rules, simply because you don't like them, such as killing disobedient children (something Jesus approved of btw).
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dappled
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I'll have to disagree. I think following the Bible to the letter of the law is such a difficult and unusual thing to do that people have written books about their attempt to do so. For instance, A. J. Jacobs with "The Year of Living Biblically: One Man's Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible".
I know people who "believe" but I don't know anyone who follows the bible literally and entirely. I would never say they are non-believers, though.
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BLAh81
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It is indeed virtually impossible to follow the Bible entirely, since it contains literally HUNDREDS of contradictions (quite a lot of which involve the most crucial aspects of Christianity btw). See: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
"I know people who "believe" but I don't know anyone who follows the bible literally and entirely. I would never say they are non-believers, though."
Same here. I also wouldn't say they are non-believers. What I WOULD say however, is that they are being kinda illogical. Don't they believe a PERFECT being inspired their book?
As an irreligious person I think I can cherry-pick the good stuff (yes that is subjective, I know) from the Bible (as from any book) WITHOUT being hypocritical. However, when you claim to follow a specific religion, I honestly think you HAVE to follow EVERYTHING in said religion (which isn't even possible in Christianity's case, because of the contradictions).
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dappled
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It's an interesting point. I suppose everybody has to find a way of dealing with the texts of their religion. A friend of the family (who is a Methodist minister) always recommends a common-sense approach (as opposed to an anal and literal approach). I'd never thought about it until now but there's a relationship between holy books and those who follow the religion and it's a different relationship for each person. It's personal.
Strangely, I suppose, there can be a relationship even between atheists and holy books. Parts of the bible make a lot of sense to me. Why would I choose to ignore them just because the book as a whole alludes to some things that I don't believe? There are parts of Islam, and many Eastern religions that I feel similarly about.
I do believe there's a global truth and many religions tap into it, but are also abused by writers who want power, control or a tourniquet for their insecurities.
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BLAh81
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I think what is important to remember is that a good part of the Bible is about how to live together in harmony, in communtities where there is respect and consideration for others and how to live as a family and raise your children to respect you. Many of the other stories teach you to believe and have faith in God. Almost all religions promote this so there must be some sense in it at least.
"Strangely, I suppose, there can be a relationship even between atheists and holy books. Parts of the bible make a lot of sense to me. Why would I choose to ignore them just because the book as a whole alludes to some things that I don't believe? There are parts of Islam, and many Eastern religions that I feel similarly about."
I totally agree. For example, though I despise Christianity as a whole as an absurd and immoral religion, I think (tiny) bits of the Bible contain precious gems of wisdom.
From my studies, I've come to conclude that the bible does have some stories of historical accuracy, and a few books are transferred from oral traditions as parables but that many books are of unknown origin and have either been fabricated or altered for the purposes of power, I believe most of this alteration has been done during the Medieval Era and some of the fabrication was an attempt to tame what was a very chaotic society. Religious authorites that I spoke to once upon a time attest that the old testament only originally was the ten commandments and the stories of Moses but nothing more. More was just added.
I hold science in high regard, but even the records of scientific discoveries are not immune from human tampering for gains. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. The first example that comes to mind is companies that pay off their scientists to try to find "conclusive" discoveries in support of their product or cause that they could use to dissuade the public from suspicion.
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dappled
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I couldn't agree more. I have seen some global abuses in research (particularly healthcare) for which people should hang. I don't normally believe in the death penalty but if your actions knowingly bring about the deaths of tens of thousands of people then it doesn't matter if you're a dictator or a businessman in a suit.
I agree with you about the alteration to the texts and when that happened. Occasionally you can see where it's happened.
I'm fascinated by the books of all religions but the bible is a social history as well as historic in the wider sense.
One thing I'm always interested in is when science and the bible work together. Scientifically, we can pretty much prove the great flood, determine where it happened, and even why. If I was religious, though, I might feel squinky about science giving scientific backing to things in the bible.
I know there's absolutely no need for the two spheres of thought to be opposed (and it's my personal opinion that they have the same root) but that's the way it sometimes seems. I wish more people approached it like you and I. I don't think we attack each other about it at all, and I'm always interested in what you say because you come at it calmly and without suspicion.
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NeuroNeptunian
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I'm glad someone else sees it the way I do.
I believe that my mentality stems from my belief that humans are entirely and eternally flawed and by extension, anything they create will be flawed as well. On that account, whether or not my church or collegues agree with me, I'm nonetheless always willing to accept that anything created by the hands of a human is fallible no matter how air tight it may seem.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, that religion and science as well as every academia can live together in harmony. All knowledge is wonderful. Personally, I see science (by which I mean the observable processes of nature and the possibilities of which) as God's gift to man as a means to understand his creation. Like an artist showing his work to.the world, there's a little bit of God and the universe in everything. I'm sure I don't have to explain to you the wonders of the mechanisms of cells and how they bear such similarity to what has been invented by humans...
Whether you chock it up to a Supreme Creator or to the magic that is in nature in and of itself is your personal choice that I feel no need to judge. I'm just happy that I'm not the only person that can appreciate both "worlds".