With all due respect, your Dutch culture towards drugs is entirely different to that of the UK and USA.
You say that your teacher at 6 years old tried to 'contain' you. In my day, from your first day at school you would have been caned and if you dared to even answer back your parents would'be been so ashamed of you, that they would've beaten you too. There's no containment about it - we were beaten! It's not about all of us being allowed to be wonderful free thinkers, it's about having respect for your elders and betters. What do you know as a young child at school, you are an idiot compared to a teacher. So if this generation listened and learned they would do a lot better than always feeling they have the right to disrupt a class. They have no right to display a lack of manners or prevent others learning.
I also teach children from 8-13 years and treat them like my own - firm but fair. I genuinely love children and although the disruptive ones initially bore me, once they engage with me, I think they are great! I do believe that many people underestimate children assuming that even a 2 year old doesn't understand what parents are saying about them to other adults - wrong!!
However, one of my major concerns is the increase in teenage suicides because at the first sign of trouble they opt out, permanently!!! The 'experts' are linking this to drugs but personally I think it's just that they do not face consequences of wrong doing from an early age - whatever they may be. Many parents are so determined to live their own lives (drink and drugs) they let their children run wild. It takes a lot of energy to discipline a child for many years.
Nor do I find any problem with rote learning, eventually it becomes second nature. We become very confused with varying 'expert' opinions but whatever works I'm happy to go with it!
*retry...phone submit button is next to keyboard, sorry everyone.
@joybird
Hehe I forgot about our culture with drugs here. Tbh I've never used any for reasons I won't go into(offtopic), but yeah, my parents have cannabis growing in their front garden, what a wonderful world being able to decide for ourselves. (Love the Eddie Izzard quote: “But the Dutch speak four languages and smoke marijuana!”)
Yeah, I understand the premise, but I don't think we'll know how I would have reacted. I'm 'stubborn' to the self destructive and when you make it physical it is like a...signal that all things are allowed. And I can only imagine what it would been like, but I probably would have plotted some sort of revenge scheme. Still I was send to...euh...timeout I guess...a lot during that age, because teachers would tell me to do something, I would say no your logic is flawed, there is no merit to your given task, I refuse and then you could threaten me with everything, I would not do it. It is like order me to do something and I will not do it, ask me to do something and I will [most likely] do it. Though that might be a personality trait I picked up at birth.
And see, they aren't. Believe me. I came from primary school (age ~4-12) a narcissistic bastard with the view that all people were stupid. Why? Because in general primary school teachers aren't smart and they can [easily] be outperformed and out-knowledged even at that age. And knowing you are smarter than the people supposed to teach you isn't that great for your world view or respect towards them. (I'm still a narcissistic bastard, but I've learned that not all people are stupid:D And I know I'm not that smart, which actually only makes it worse.)
Bit offtopic, but I see the critical thinkers as a positive thing and giving respect to elders / authority figures a bad thing. Respect has to be earned based on evaluation and not on profession or age.
Also research has shown that positive reinforcement is more effective than negative. But...I think the severity doesn't really matter, or the caning. You just have to be...mhmm...the word...firm I guess. consequent(the closest thing I could think of in English is consistent.)
I read your description, so I knew a bit about it. Didn't know the target age though. Kind of interested in what you teach them/target group.
Mhmm, could be. But like I said before drug use/acceptance is down and looking at suicide statics suggests that we're doing great. Take Japan for instance they seem to have the school system/society you are talking about and suicide and social defects are through the roof. (Hikikomori, NEETs and freeters.)
I do agree with the complimenting where no compliments should be given. It is a bit of a two sided issue in my opinion. Being honest and realistic is necessary. So no false compliments. (This however conflicts with a society that asks us to be polite and show respect to those who have not earned it, which is dishonest in the same way.) And yeah they should human up!(man up is sexist) But some people need the compliments to keep them going. When I fail, I get frustrated and will not give up till I succeed. It frustrates/disgusts me, but there are people out there that get very demotivated after repeated failures. (which isn't that strange) Then you've got the option to compliment/adjust the level to give them some confidence and they may end up at the desired level after smaller increments or create bad spirit towards the subject, which often leads to thinking they have/will fail without trying.
I think it goes 'wrong' before that. Tbh I don't think most people have got the spirit for it. Still, I wouldn't say it has gotten worse. Using anecdotal statistics comparing my generation to my students I would say it even improved. Plus the 'increased'(?) stress of modern life is probably something that takes away the weaker ones at an earlier age. I think having to deal with that stress at younger ages is worse for suicide rates(as in increase) than the occasional compliment. (Stress(ing) =/= exhausting)
I have no experience nor am I planning to gain that experience, because I would probably create a social defect with my Spartan methods. So I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you there. Haven't read anything about it, so I take anecdotal evidence as it is.
And say those people commit suicide. Then, in light of a negative evaluation of their ethos, it would be a win for our species as long as they have not reproduced. I do not see a problem with a small percentage committing suicide for that reason, helps with overpopulation and modern natural selection.
Then the most fun part is again...statistics. UK and Netherlands both low in the suicide rates. Then teen 0-24 suicide rates are down comparing to previous years. Ages 48-68 are up in suicide rate. So it are actually the old generations who are committing suicide and the new generation of teens seems to commit less suicide.
And I do see merit it the old system. It is just that modern technology has decreased the value of it. For example you can ask me all about historical dates. I can probably find all the information and more on my phone in about 5s opposed to the person who spend years learning those dates and facts. (And tbh can't be trusted, because human memory is not exact.)
And since people don't have unlimited time, choices have to be made about how to spend that time. Then I would choose not learning the dates and facts and just how to use them. (Disclaimer: my memory is weak, I don't remember dates, names, what day it is, how old I am or what I ate last night. I can remember numbers, connections, algorithms stuff like that. So teaching me facts/data is about as effective as putting water into a sieve.)
**I'll try remove the previous one though I don't see the option on my phone. -- found it on the computer, hey are you the author Joybird?
And Joybird. I've seen you in a lot of topics. I like you! We always seem to disagree, which is nice:D
Typing on a phone with a Dutch dictionary is hell. **
You'll find I only post a topic after I have some sort of 'experience' which in this case was the suicide of a young man following an argument with his girlfriend :o( We are constantly told on the News that teenage suicides are on the increase.
For your info, I teach 'dyslexic' kids how to read - I hate that word and don't believe there's any child / adult who can't be taught. I also teach young people maths and english, but spend most time concentrating on my teenage son. He was labelled as 'severely dyslexic' and set to be a failure in exams. He can read well now and always gets As in exams.
However, I graduated with honours in Business Studies - so love the stock market, although I don't get much chance to follow it closely anymore.
Love your comments as it gives me food for thought. I really enjoy a good debate, too often I find myself in the company of shallow people with no opinions. I an not a lenient parent or teacher, but it seems to work for me and them.
Is it normal to think that we are creating 'weak' adults?
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With all due respect, your Dutch culture towards drugs is entirely different to that of the UK and USA.
You say that your teacher at 6 years old tried to 'contain' you. In my day, from your first day at school you would have been caned and if you dared to even answer back your parents would'be been so ashamed of you, that they would've beaten you too. There's no containment about it - we were beaten! It's not about all of us being allowed to be wonderful free thinkers, it's about having respect for your elders and betters. What do you know as a young child at school, you are an idiot compared to a teacher. So if this generation listened and learned they would do a lot better than always feeling they have the right to disrupt a class. They have no right to display a lack of manners or prevent others learning.
I also teach children from 8-13 years and treat them like my own - firm but fair. I genuinely love children and although the disruptive ones initially bore me, once they engage with me, I think they are great! I do believe that many people underestimate children assuming that even a 2 year old doesn't understand what parents are saying about them to other adults - wrong!!
However, one of my major concerns is the increase in teenage suicides because at the first sign of trouble they opt out, permanently!!! The 'experts' are linking this to drugs but personally I think it's just that they do not face consequences of wrong doing from an early age - whatever they may be. Many parents are so determined to live their own lives (drink and drugs) they let their children run wild. It takes a lot of energy to discipline a child for many years.
Nor do I find any problem with rote learning, eventually it becomes second nature. We become very confused with varying 'expert' opinions but whatever works I'm happy to go with it!
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Blackwargreymon
12 years ago
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*retry...phone submit button is next to keyboard, sorry everyone.
@joybird
Hehe I forgot about our culture with drugs here. Tbh I've never used any for reasons I won't go into(offtopic), but yeah, my parents have cannabis growing in their front garden, what a wonderful world being able to decide for ourselves. (Love the Eddie Izzard quote: “But the Dutch speak four languages and smoke marijuana!”)
Yeah, I understand the premise, but I don't think we'll know how I would have reacted. I'm 'stubborn' to the self destructive and when you make it physical it is like a...signal that all things are allowed. And I can only imagine what it would been like, but I probably would have plotted some sort of revenge scheme. Still I was send to...euh...timeout I guess...a lot during that age, because teachers would tell me to do something, I would say no your logic is flawed, there is no merit to your given task, I refuse and then you could threaten me with everything, I would not do it. It is like order me to do something and I will not do it, ask me to do something and I will [most likely] do it. Though that might be a personality trait I picked up at birth.
And see, they aren't. Believe me. I came from primary school (age ~4-12) a narcissistic bastard with the view that all people were stupid. Why? Because in general primary school teachers aren't smart and they can [easily] be outperformed and out-knowledged even at that age. And knowing you are smarter than the people supposed to teach you isn't that great for your world view or respect towards them. (I'm still a narcissistic bastard, but I've learned that not all people are stupid:D And I know I'm not that smart, which actually only makes it worse.)
Bit offtopic, but I see the critical thinkers as a positive thing and giving respect to elders / authority figures a bad thing. Respect has to be earned based on evaluation and not on profession or age.
Also research has shown that positive reinforcement is more effective than negative. But...I think the severity doesn't really matter, or the caning. You just have to be...mhmm...the word...firm I guess. consequent(the closest thing I could think of in English is consistent.)
I read your description, so I knew a bit about it. Didn't know the target age though. Kind of interested in what you teach them/target group.
Mhmm, could be. But like I said before drug use/acceptance is down and looking at suicide statics suggests that we're doing great. Take Japan for instance they seem to have the school system/society you are talking about and suicide and social defects are through the roof. (Hikikomori, NEETs and freeters.)
*continue*
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Blackwargreymon
12 years ago
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I do agree with the complimenting where no compliments should be given. It is a bit of a two sided issue in my opinion. Being honest and realistic is necessary. So no false compliments. (This however conflicts with a society that asks us to be polite and show respect to those who have not earned it, which is dishonest in the same way.) And yeah they should human up!(man up is sexist) But some people need the compliments to keep them going. When I fail, I get frustrated and will not give up till I succeed. It frustrates/disgusts me, but there are people out there that get very demotivated after repeated failures. (which isn't that strange) Then you've got the option to compliment/adjust the level to give them some confidence and they may end up at the desired level after smaller increments or create bad spirit towards the subject, which often leads to thinking they have/will fail without trying.
I think it goes 'wrong' before that. Tbh I don't think most people have got the spirit for it. Still, I wouldn't say it has gotten worse. Using anecdotal statistics comparing my generation to my students I would say it even improved. Plus the 'increased'(?) stress of modern life is probably something that takes away the weaker ones at an earlier age. I think having to deal with that stress at younger ages is worse for suicide rates(as in increase) than the occasional compliment. (Stress(ing) =/= exhausting)
I have no experience nor am I planning to gain that experience, because I would probably create a social defect with my Spartan methods. So I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you there. Haven't read anything about it, so I take anecdotal evidence as it is.
And say those people commit suicide. Then, in light of a negative evaluation of their ethos, it would be a win for our species as long as they have not reproduced. I do not see a problem with a small percentage committing suicide for that reason, helps with overpopulation and modern natural selection.
Then the most fun part is again...statistics. UK and Netherlands both low in the suicide rates. Then teen 0-24 suicide rates are down comparing to previous years. Ages 48-68 are up in suicide rate. So it are actually the old generations who are committing suicide and the new generation of teens seems to commit less suicide.
*continue*
--
Blackwargreymon
12 years ago
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And I do see merit it the old system. It is just that modern technology has decreased the value of it. For example you can ask me all about historical dates. I can probably find all the information and more on my phone in about 5s opposed to the person who spend years learning those dates and facts. (And tbh can't be trusted, because human memory is not exact.)
And since people don't have unlimited time, choices have to be made about how to spend that time. Then I would choose not learning the dates and facts and just how to use them. (Disclaimer: my memory is weak, I don't remember dates, names, what day it is, how old I am or what I ate last night. I can remember numbers, connections, algorithms stuff like that. So teaching me facts/data is about as effective as putting water into a sieve.)
**I'll try remove the previous one though I don't see the option on my phone. -- found it on the computer, hey are you the author Joybird?
And Joybird. I've seen you in a lot of topics. I like you! We always seem to disagree, which is nice:D
Typing on a phone with a Dutch dictionary is hell. **
--
joybird
12 years ago
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Yes! That's me!
You'll find I only post a topic after I have some sort of 'experience' which in this case was the suicide of a young man following an argument with his girlfriend :o( We are constantly told on the News that teenage suicides are on the increase.
For your info, I teach 'dyslexic' kids how to read - I hate that word and don't believe there's any child / adult who can't be taught. I also teach young people maths and english, but spend most time concentrating on my teenage son. He was labelled as 'severely dyslexic' and set to be a failure in exams. He can read well now and always gets As in exams.
However, I graduated with honours in Business Studies - so love the stock market, although I don't get much chance to follow it closely anymore.
Love your comments as it gives me food for thought. I really enjoy a good debate, too often I find myself in the company of shallow people with no opinions. I an not a lenient parent or teacher, but it seems to work for me and them.
:o)