Did it ever occur to you how many women feel invisible too? It's not strictly a male problem. It's also worth noting that while maybe any woman can 'get laid', that does essentially nothing for her, in fact can do quite the opposite (slut shaming) and gaining nothing, not even an orgasm, from the encounter. Any guy can get laid too, for as little as $5 and a lot less shame on his part. The woman 'getting laid' is having sex with a guy too, so for every easy lay a guy is getting some too. I love it how guys like to say it's so easy and all a woman has to do is open her legs but you fail to recognize that if a woman 'just opens her legs' then no guy did all this 'hard work' to get that pussy. She just laid back and let it happen. But nope, every guy has to work so hard for it! But yet there's all these women just laying back asking for it. Well obviously at least some guys aren't doing shit for 'work' if women are giving it up like that, just laying back and beckoning it. Pick one. You can't stand on both sides saying men work so hard for sex yet women just lay back and rake it in.
Can't say I've been watching the markets, but 5 bucks seems like quite the bargain. I'm going to make a few statements and if you disagree with them, that's fine, but that's probably were our discussion is going to crumple:
1) It is easier for a woman to be considered attractive to men than for a man to be considered attractive to women.
2) Because of relationship dynamics, men much more often have to initiate than women do. Maybe it's society, maybe it's because women are more risk-averse, but it's not too important why this is. It just is.
3) Because of 2), we can say it is harder/more effort/more risk for a man to attract women than the other way around.
The male 'player' has to be high-value: there's just more involved with being the seducer than the seducee. Most people can sit around, look pretty and—in the slut's case—have loose morals.
I hope that clarifies why this 'double standard' doesn't exist.
Well, if you really believe that then you're putting yourself below women and acting accordingly. Don't blame what comes of that on anyone but yourself. You're also seriously discounting the experiences of women who fall outside the stereotypical desireable range. It's convenient to say that they could get laid if they just open their legs but as far as having meaningful relationships, being taken seriously, being cared about? That's another story.
Leave the poor straw man alone, he didn't do anything. My statements in no way place me or men below women, I was trying to explain why there's a different perception of men who get laid a bunch vs women who get laid a bunch.
You bring up a good point: what happens to women who fall outside of 'desirable range'. To that I'll say this: unless you are morbidly obese, psychotic or disfigured there will be a decent amount of men* who find you attractive enough to date and care about.
*The problem is, these men aren't the high-value, attractive sort that women can see. Maybe they're potbellied and 5'6", have a weak chin or collect trash for a living. This is what I mean when I say that men see more women as possible mates than the other way around.
Yeah, no 5'6....fat...or garbage man...EVER gets laid, let alone is in a relationship.
Tell that to the short fat garbage man from my old hometown. He apparently didn't get that memo. And if you want to make it about money, well my best male friend worked there and made good money and always wanted to go out with me but I wasn't interested because I simply did not like him in that way. Had nothing to do with his looks or money or even dick size (he 'accidentally' showed me a picture), I just did not like him romantically. Period. Working for the garbage man was one of the best gigs you can get around there. True in a lot of other places too.
And attractive people have an easier time hooking up and getting in relationships than non-attractive people? Wow, major insight. You're just claiming it's easier for unattractive women than men. No proof and no sound reasoning provided.
For every unattractive person in a relationship, there's another party involved. Where is this supply of overly-attractive men that are settling for unattractive women because they just can't do better? Why can't they do better? Do they even exist?
Let me try to lay out your reply as best as I can.
You started by painting my example as an extreme, like it was some axiom my entire argument was dependent upon. If you wanted to know when you did it, look for the capslock.
You then continued, writing an essay to tear my analogy a new asshole. This isn't my argument here, and you've proved nothing beyond the fact that short garbage men give you dick pics.
You then mispainted my argument so that you could dismiss it without addressing it:
"And attractive people have an easier time hooking up and getting in relationships than non-attractive people? Wow, major insight."
Of course it's no major insight, it's also not my point. My point is that the pool for potential mates is far deeper on the women's side than the men's. I'll spare you an analogy because I know what you do to them.
The reality is, 80% of women have descendants while only 40% of men do. You don't have to look at the math too hard to realize there are much more women getting laid than men.
"80% of women have descendants while only 40% of men do."
While true, does this have much significance today? No. The reason it's true was never because of women's choice in men, rather the lack of it. Women weren't the ones keeping men from reproducing, other men were. For instance, men taking multiple wives...but not the other way around. What happens when 1 man has 5-10 wives? 5-10 other men get no wives. Women didn't even have their own choice to reproduce due to rape being perfectly fine, no birth control and being treated as property. Also, what happens when the men in charge send all the young men into war and it decimates the male population? Dead men can't father children. I'd like to see how those numbers have changed since modern laws against rape and access to birth control have had time to set in. And more responsible military management. Don't even try to use this as some kind of positive for women, and act like they had much influence on it, it's not, it's quite the opposite. It hasn't been until very recently that women (and still not even ALL women) have had any choice in reproducing, it's still pretty limited even in the US from lack of access to affordable birth control, abortion and rape still being pretty 'normal'.
I'm not painting your example as an extreme...you say all women have to do is spread their legs yet at the same time men have to work for pussy? How do those 2 reconcile? If a woman is just spreading her legs then it follows that some guy is getting easy pussy (not working hard for it)...so isn't it relatively equally easy for both involved?...do you realize that for anyone, male or female, to get with a person they actually want to be with....it takes work on both their parts?
is it normal to be turned off by short guys?
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Did it ever occur to you how many women feel invisible too? It's not strictly a male problem. It's also worth noting that while maybe any woman can 'get laid', that does essentially nothing for her, in fact can do quite the opposite (slut shaming) and gaining nothing, not even an orgasm, from the encounter. Any guy can get laid too, for as little as $5 and a lot less shame on his part. The woman 'getting laid' is having sex with a guy too, so for every easy lay a guy is getting some too. I love it how guys like to say it's so easy and all a woman has to do is open her legs but you fail to recognize that if a woman 'just opens her legs' then no guy did all this 'hard work' to get that pussy. She just laid back and let it happen. But nope, every guy has to work so hard for it! But yet there's all these women just laying back asking for it. Well obviously at least some guys aren't doing shit for 'work' if women are giving it up like that, just laying back and beckoning it. Pick one. You can't stand on both sides saying men work so hard for sex yet women just lay back and rake it in.
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bubsy
6 years ago
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Can't say I've been watching the markets, but 5 bucks seems like quite the bargain. I'm going to make a few statements and if you disagree with them, that's fine, but that's probably were our discussion is going to crumple:
1) It is easier for a woman to be considered attractive to men than for a man to be considered attractive to women.
2) Because of relationship dynamics, men much more often have to initiate than women do. Maybe it's society, maybe it's because women are more risk-averse, but it's not too important why this is. It just is.
3) Because of 2), we can say it is harder/more effort/more risk for a man to attract women than the other way around.
The male 'player' has to be high-value: there's just more involved with being the seducer than the seducee. Most people can sit around, look pretty and—in the slut's case—have loose morals.
I hope that clarifies why this 'double standard' doesn't exist.
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wigz
6 years ago
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Well, if you really believe that then you're putting yourself below women and acting accordingly. Don't blame what comes of that on anyone but yourself. You're also seriously discounting the experiences of women who fall outside the stereotypical desireable range. It's convenient to say that they could get laid if they just open their legs but as far as having meaningful relationships, being taken seriously, being cared about? That's another story.
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bubsy
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Leave the poor straw man alone, he didn't do anything. My statements in no way place me or men below women, I was trying to explain why there's a different perception of men who get laid a bunch vs women who get laid a bunch.
You bring up a good point: what happens to women who fall outside of 'desirable range'. To that I'll say this: unless you are morbidly obese, psychotic or disfigured there will be a decent amount of men* who find you attractive enough to date and care about.
*The problem is, these men aren't the high-value, attractive sort that women can see. Maybe they're potbellied and 5'6", have a weak chin or collect trash for a living. This is what I mean when I say that men see more women as possible mates than the other way around.
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wigz
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Yeah, no 5'6....fat...or garbage man...EVER gets laid, let alone is in a relationship.
Tell that to the short fat garbage man from my old hometown. He apparently didn't get that memo. And if you want to make it about money, well my best male friend worked there and made good money and always wanted to go out with me but I wasn't interested because I simply did not like him in that way. Had nothing to do with his looks or money or even dick size (he 'accidentally' showed me a picture), I just did not like him romantically. Period. Working for the garbage man was one of the best gigs you can get around there. True in a lot of other places too.
And attractive people have an easier time hooking up and getting in relationships than non-attractive people? Wow, major insight. You're just claiming it's easier for unattractive women than men. No proof and no sound reasoning provided.
For every unattractive person in a relationship, there's another party involved. Where is this supply of overly-attractive men that are settling for unattractive women because they just can't do better? Why can't they do better? Do they even exist?
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bubsy
6 years ago
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Let me try to lay out your reply as best as I can.
You started by painting my example as an extreme, like it was some axiom my entire argument was dependent upon. If you wanted to know when you did it, look for the capslock.
You then continued, writing an essay to tear my analogy a new asshole. This isn't my argument here, and you've proved nothing beyond the fact that short garbage men give you dick pics.
You then mispainted my argument so that you could dismiss it without addressing it:
"And attractive people have an easier time hooking up and getting in relationships than non-attractive people? Wow, major insight."
Of course it's no major insight, it's also not my point. My point is that the pool for potential mates is far deeper on the women's side than the men's. I'll spare you an analogy because I know what you do to them.
The reality is, 80% of women have descendants while only 40% of men do. You don't have to look at the math too hard to realize there are much more women getting laid than men.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/h4e/differential_reproduction_for_men_and_women/
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wigz
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"80% of women have descendants while only 40% of men do."
While true, does this have much significance today? No. The reason it's true was never because of women's choice in men, rather the lack of it. Women weren't the ones keeping men from reproducing, other men were. For instance, men taking multiple wives...but not the other way around. What happens when 1 man has 5-10 wives? 5-10 other men get no wives. Women didn't even have their own choice to reproduce due to rape being perfectly fine, no birth control and being treated as property. Also, what happens when the men in charge send all the young men into war and it decimates the male population? Dead men can't father children. I'd like to see how those numbers have changed since modern laws against rape and access to birth control have had time to set in. And more responsible military management. Don't even try to use this as some kind of positive for women, and act like they had much influence on it, it's not, it's quite the opposite. It hasn't been until very recently that women (and still not even ALL women) have had any choice in reproducing, it's still pretty limited even in the US from lack of access to affordable birth control, abortion and rape still being pretty 'normal'.
I'm not painting your example as an extreme...you say all women have to do is spread their legs yet at the same time men have to work for pussy? How do those 2 reconcile? If a woman is just spreading her legs then it follows that some guy is getting easy pussy (not working hard for it)...so isn't it relatively equally easy for both involved?...do you realize that for anyone, male or female, to get with a person they actually want to be with....it takes work on both their parts?