Wrong beliefs that generally endanger humanity. For example, the idea that homosexuality is not a sin.
When it comes to Pope Francis, though, I think he's a heretic. My exact thoughts are hard to explain, and I effectively have to explain the three types of "Traditionalist Catholic" in order to explain them. There are three types of Traditionalist Catholicism: sedeplenism, sedevacantism, and sedeprivationism. I am a sedeprivationist.
Sedeplenists are a group of Traditionalist Catholics (also known as the "non-radical" Traditionalist Catholics) who believe that the Papacy that is currently in place is the Papacy of the Catholic Church of Christ. They claim that people should "Realize and Resist" when the Papacy says anything wrong. The problem with "R&R" is that the Papacy is supposed to be infallible in its teachings, and the recent Popes have proven themselves to be fallible.
This problem of obvious fallability in the Papacy has four answers, with the answer Sedeplenists go with being clearly wrong. The argument they use is as follows:
"The Papacy has not made any statements "ex cathedra" (in the form of a highly official church order), so none of it counts under the idea of "Papal infallibility"."
The problem with this argument is that it presents a complete misunderstanding of Papal infallibility. It does not merely apply to "ex cathedra" statements; it applies to any church orders or teachings. When the Roman Catholic Church defines itself as "subsisting in" The Church of Christ, rather than -being- the Church of Christ, that is a clear example of Papal fallibility.
That is where the “Radical” Traditionalist Catholics come in. There are three other answers to the problem of Papal infallibility:
1. (The argument non-Traditionalist Catholics use) “The Papacy has said nothing false.”
2. (The argument Old Catholics use) “Papal infallibility is a false idea to begin with.”
3. (The argument “Radical” Traditionalist Catholics use) “The current Papacy is a false Papacy.”
I effectively have to disprove the first two in order to continue. The Papacy has clearly stated falsehoods to be true teachings; anyone who disagrees is a heretic. Some of these include the aforementioned “subsisting in” wording in the definition of the Church itself and Francis's changes to the Catechism, making it state that the death penalty is a horrendously sinful act, despite the fact that the Church has supported the death penalty from the very beginning.
The second argument is one that could possibly be correct, but is far less likely than the third. In order to claim this argument, you must not only disagree with everything from Vatican II onward, but you must also disagree with Vatican I, as well as the general sentiment of Christians up until Vatican I. So, that would be a very bold claim.
So, that leaves the third argument as the most likely argument. The two types of “Radical” Traditionalist Catholics both agree upon it. However, they disagree on how it actually applies. The argument of the Sedevacantists is that heretics cannot be in the Papacy, so all those in the Papacy are illegitimate, since they all either didn't fight Vatican II or were appointed by those who didn't.
This finally allows me to get to what I believe, in a way that actually makes sense. Sedeprivationists believe that the current Papacy have cut themselves off from the Church of Christ, and have even legally defined themselves as cut off from the Church of Christ, since they defined the Roman Catholic Church as “subsisting in” the Church of Christ. They effectively split what was one Church into two Churches: the one true Church, the Church of Christ, and the old government of the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church. While Sedevacantists believe that, through their heresy, the Roman Catholic Church can never again be the one true Church, since all those within it are heretics, the Sedeprivationists believe something different. We believe that through abjuring (effectively stating that it was never correct) the Council that created the separation (Vatican II) and everything that came after, the Roman Catholic Church can once again become the one true Church. Unless that happens, though, and it probably won't, I am a follower of the Catholic Church of Christ (not a real church title, you'd just be looking for Sedeprivationist Churches).
I am sorry if you do not want to read this long rant; there is no real other way to put my beliefs on the Pope.
Yeah I knew it had to be bad when someone who was raised Lutheran became agnostic noticed how crappy of a religious leader the pope is being.
I appreciate that I learned some of the inter politics of the church, I really only was intrested in medieval times church affairs due to the more intertwined power structures of the church and state.
Are you saying I was an agnostic or you were an agnostic? If you were saying I was an agnostic, I was never an agnostic. I was raised Lutheran and became Catholic. Then, I realized how awful the current Papacy is and decided to become a Sedeprivationist.
IIN That I think today's black culture is degenerate
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What's considered heretical now? Also unrelated what's your opinion on the pope? I personally think hes a weak leader.
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Clunk42
2 years ago
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Wrong beliefs that generally endanger humanity. For example, the idea that homosexuality is not a sin.
When it comes to Pope Francis, though, I think he's a heretic. My exact thoughts are hard to explain, and I effectively have to explain the three types of "Traditionalist Catholic" in order to explain them. There are three types of Traditionalist Catholicism: sedeplenism, sedevacantism, and sedeprivationism. I am a sedeprivationist.
Sedeplenists are a group of Traditionalist Catholics (also known as the "non-radical" Traditionalist Catholics) who believe that the Papacy that is currently in place is the Papacy of the Catholic Church of Christ. They claim that people should "Realize and Resist" when the Papacy says anything wrong. The problem with "R&R" is that the Papacy is supposed to be infallible in its teachings, and the recent Popes have proven themselves to be fallible.
This problem of obvious fallability in the Papacy has four answers, with the answer Sedeplenists go with being clearly wrong. The argument they use is as follows:
"The Papacy has not made any statements "ex cathedra" (in the form of a highly official church order), so none of it counts under the idea of "Papal infallibility"."
The problem with this argument is that it presents a complete misunderstanding of Papal infallibility. It does not merely apply to "ex cathedra" statements; it applies to any church orders or teachings. When the Roman Catholic Church defines itself as "subsisting in" The Church of Christ, rather than -being- the Church of Christ, that is a clear example of Papal fallibility.
That is where the “Radical” Traditionalist Catholics come in. There are three other answers to the problem of Papal infallibility:
1. (The argument non-Traditionalist Catholics use) “The Papacy has said nothing false.”
2. (The argument Old Catholics use) “Papal infallibility is a false idea to begin with.”
3. (The argument “Radical” Traditionalist Catholics use) “The current Papacy is a false Papacy.”
I effectively have to disprove the first two in order to continue. The Papacy has clearly stated falsehoods to be true teachings; anyone who disagrees is a heretic. Some of these include the aforementioned “subsisting in” wording in the definition of the Church itself and Francis's changes to the Catechism, making it state that the death penalty is a horrendously sinful act, despite the fact that the Church has supported the death penalty from the very beginning.
The second argument is one that could possibly be correct, but is far less likely than the third. In order to claim this argument, you must not only disagree with everything from Vatican II onward, but you must also disagree with Vatican I, as well as the general sentiment of Christians up until Vatican I. So, that would be a very bold claim.
So, that leaves the third argument as the most likely argument. The two types of “Radical” Traditionalist Catholics both agree upon it. However, they disagree on how it actually applies. The argument of the Sedevacantists is that heretics cannot be in the Papacy, so all those in the Papacy are illegitimate, since they all either didn't fight Vatican II or were appointed by those who didn't.
This finally allows me to get to what I believe, in a way that actually makes sense. Sedeprivationists believe that the current Papacy have cut themselves off from the Church of Christ, and have even legally defined themselves as cut off from the Church of Christ, since they defined the Roman Catholic Church as “subsisting in” the Church of Christ. They effectively split what was one Church into two Churches: the one true Church, the Church of Christ, and the old government of the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church. While Sedevacantists believe that, through their heresy, the Roman Catholic Church can never again be the one true Church, since all those within it are heretics, the Sedeprivationists believe something different. We believe that through abjuring (effectively stating that it was never correct) the Council that created the separation (Vatican II) and everything that came after, the Roman Catholic Church can once again become the one true Church. Unless that happens, though, and it probably won't, I am a follower of the Catholic Church of Christ (not a real church title, you'd just be looking for Sedeprivationist Churches).
I am sorry if you do not want to read this long rant; there is no real other way to put my beliefs on the Pope.
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LloydAsher
2 years ago
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Yeah I knew it had to be bad when someone who was raised Lutheran became agnostic noticed how crappy of a religious leader the pope is being.
I appreciate that I learned some of the inter politics of the church, I really only was intrested in medieval times church affairs due to the more intertwined power structures of the church and state.
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Clunk42
2 years ago
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Are you saying I was an agnostic or you were an agnostic? If you were saying I was an agnostic, I was never an agnostic. I was raised Lutheran and became Catholic. Then, I realized how awful the current Papacy is and decided to become a Sedeprivationist.
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LloydAsher
2 years ago
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Sorry my words got jumbled. I was referring to myself.
Yeah I dont remember peoples religious orientation.