There are lots of answers of both sides of the debate. But faith isn't about having the most convincing argument. And we know that a lot of life doesn't make sense or seem fair, even if you take God out of the equation. It's the same world whether you believe God exists or not. And irrespective of what we believe about him, if God is there, then he's there.
If hell is real, the caring thing is to warn people how to avoid it. Just like if a person is about to walk backwards off a cliff, you warn them. Not by shaming or belittling, or trying to use the cliff to manipulate them. But by saying 'Watch out there's a cliff edge behind you!' As distasteful as he sounds to you (believe me, malaria, mass shootings, Alzheimer's and many, many other things are distasteful to me and I wish I could just disbelieve them out of existence...), if it's dangerous and it's there, we need to protect people from it.
The problem is that you have no proof that heaven or hell or god for that matter exists. And for a just and loving god to exist hell cant exist. What’s worse that you believe that your god is a monster or that you don’t understand that you believe that your god is a monster. Hell and the threat of hell is a manipulation. Same as Santa is to make kids behave. Only with Santa your not telling kids that if they don’t behave they will burn and suffer for eternity. Just because you believe in something doesn’t make it a reality. If I said I believe in a magic poop fairy it doesn’t make that a reality and if I’m trying to make other people believe in the power of the magic poop fairy. People should challenge that belief. Just like they should challenge the belief of any god. A lack of evidence is not evidence. And there is no evidence of god.
The proof I have is what I have lived through, and the Bible texts, and various other references from the secular archeological record.
That being said... there are many other things we subject to far less scrutiny than we subject belief in God, and yet we will still entertain at least the possibility that they are real. Like parallel universes, extraterrestrial life... my faith does not depend on a 100% fully supported case that would stand in a court of law, in order to hold. And yet the author Frank Morrison demonstrates in his book 'Who moved the stone?' that there is enough evidence for the Resurrection for it to pass muster in a law court.
The large part of I can see in what you've written is disdain and caricature and very little of respect; we've passed the point of civility clearly. Sigh... If I'm to spend my time writing to you I'll only do it on an equal footing. Your parallels to magic poop fairies aren't necessarily applicable to my situation just because you want them to be.
But I'll stop there. Your anger that I dare express a view that you disagree with, or that was perhaps shared by someone who hurt you once, does not make you right.
I’m not angry at all that you disagree with me. I’m not saying a god can’t exist only that there is no evidence for it. The Bible is no more evidence of god than the Quran is. The Bible not only contradicts itself many times but it contradicts proven facts. My beliefs in these matters have nothing to do with weather someone hurt me or not. That is a common thing the religious put on atheist. You have yet to show any evidence for anything and have chosen to ignore many of the points I’ve made. And now you try to dismiss me by saying. “The large part of I can see in what you've written is disdain and caricature and very little of respect; we've passed the point of civility clearly.” Yet I’m not angry or upset or even that surprised with that. Why is my poop fairy comment any different then the belief of god. I’d have just as much evidence for it as anyone does of god if I actually believed in it. Which is no evidence whatsoever. I have read the Bible and it’s not something you should get moral guidance from. It advocates murder, Slavery, rape, and genocide. To name a few things. And remember me disagreeing with you is not me being a dick. Anymore than you disagreeing with me makes you one.
You picked some shoddy examples of sins. There's nothing wrong with eating chocolate or wearing makeup :/. There'd only be something wrong with it if we were doing it for the wrong reasons. And there's not a *huge* lot wrong with 'diddling your clit' either - though it is not the best thing you can do for your soul... there are more wrong reasons you can do that for...
Well aren't you quite the idealist. What we do is an extension of the real world we live in. Life is a constant process of adaptation. Your soul is suffering from a harsh unrelenting superego. You need to get comfortable in your skin, howl at the moon, and go to the cemetery at midnight to piss on graves. Dump a shit on the gravestone of your old headmaster while your at it. He should reap what he sows.
We Christians come in all stripes... I just happen to be an idealist one.
As for pissing on graves... why would I want to ruin my own favorite beauty spot? I love hanging out in cemeteries (my favourite YouTube channel is 'Ask a Mortician'). And getting an Antisocial Behavior Order and ruining the lives of some poor grieving people is not my idea of fun. Howling at the moon would be awesome though.
Really? Howling at the moon. Maybe there is hope for you. Very few clergy of Christian churches are able to connect with Realist type personalities, which are almost the antithesis of Idealists. Indeed, I will have to check out 'Ask a Mortician' on YouTube.
You haven't met my pastors and ministers. 'Clergy' is such a dated and loaded word.
The guy's name is Ben. He has a wife and 2 kids, a goofy laugh, likes his food, rides a motorbike and spends his time figuring out how to house the local refugees.
Is howling at the moon a realist trait? Sounds like something out of a werewolf film to me... I prefer singing opera solos in concerts - or just spontaneously, at work, when I need a self-expressive vent. I love it when you get a really high ceiling - the echoes... there's a chapel where I work and I go there and sing to myself sometimes, when the urge takes me. That's howling at the moon, for me. All that's lacking is the moon. Do you howl when you're happy?
Yes, Caitlin Doughty is a mortician YouTuber. I love the way she explains the science of human decomposition. I got into it shortly after my grandmother died.
There's nothing even minutely wrong with self pleasuring and how could it possibly affect your soul? What are the wrong reasons? Experiencing pleasure?
You can say whatever you like, but so can I disagree with you. Evading the questions I asked with that comment is evidence of the paucity of your position: how about a coherent reasoned response rather than irrelevant nonsense?
Why do I need a reasoned response? Give me a reasoned response as to why the universe is not the dreamworld of some alien being, or to why the earth isn't cube-shaped...
I know God. I'm happy with knowing him. Arguments are just arguments. There will always be a more sophisticated argument to knock yours flat... until you in turn think of yet another more sophisticated argument to beat that one. Philosophical arguments can't make one hair on our heads change colour. So they can't engender or do away with a God. I am convinced he is there because I know him. I'm convinced he will still be there no matter what we say or believe or don't believe about him.
She makes a point. Even if you believe in a god that created us. He made apart of our body that gave us pleasure and then expected us not to use it. That makes no sense. When it comes to a soul. It’s never been proven whatsoever that that even exists.
Yep, why would a god create for women a part of the body which has no purpose except to provide pleasure and than make it a sin to do anything to experience that pleasure?
Is it normal that I'm not a Christian?
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There are lots of answers of both sides of the debate. But faith isn't about having the most convincing argument. And we know that a lot of life doesn't make sense or seem fair, even if you take God out of the equation. It's the same world whether you believe God exists or not. And irrespective of what we believe about him, if God is there, then he's there.
If hell is real, the caring thing is to warn people how to avoid it. Just like if a person is about to walk backwards off a cliff, you warn them. Not by shaming or belittling, or trying to use the cliff to manipulate them. But by saying 'Watch out there's a cliff edge behind you!' As distasteful as he sounds to you (believe me, malaria, mass shootings, Alzheimer's and many, many other things are distasteful to me and I wish I could just disbelieve them out of existence...), if it's dangerous and it's there, we need to protect people from it.
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Lestat565
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The problem is that you have no proof that heaven or hell or god for that matter exists. And for a just and loving god to exist hell cant exist. What’s worse that you believe that your god is a monster or that you don’t understand that you believe that your god is a monster. Hell and the threat of hell is a manipulation. Same as Santa is to make kids behave. Only with Santa your not telling kids that if they don’t behave they will burn and suffer for eternity. Just because you believe in something doesn’t make it a reality. If I said I believe in a magic poop fairy it doesn’t make that a reality and if I’m trying to make other people believe in the power of the magic poop fairy. People should challenge that belief. Just like they should challenge the belief of any god. A lack of evidence is not evidence. And there is no evidence of god.
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Grunewald
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If there was proof it wouldn't be faith.
No one knows either way.
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Lestat565
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And no, it would exactly be faith. Faith is just a belief. No particular logical backing or anything required
I completely agree. No one atheist or otherwise who say they know god exists or doesn’t is full of crap. We don’t truly know cause we can’t know.
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You can disprove it actually, and it's been done
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The proof I have is what I have lived through, and the Bible texts, and various other references from the secular archeological record.
That being said... there are many other things we subject to far less scrutiny than we subject belief in God, and yet we will still entertain at least the possibility that they are real. Like parallel universes, extraterrestrial life... my faith does not depend on a 100% fully supported case that would stand in a court of law, in order to hold. And yet the author Frank Morrison demonstrates in his book 'Who moved the stone?' that there is enough evidence for the Resurrection for it to pass muster in a law court.
The large part of I can see in what you've written is disdain and caricature and very little of respect; we've passed the point of civility clearly. Sigh... If I'm to spend my time writing to you I'll only do it on an equal footing. Your parallels to magic poop fairies aren't necessarily applicable to my situation just because you want them to be.
But I'll stop there. Your anger that I dare express a view that you disagree with, or that was perhaps shared by someone who hurt you once, does not make you right.
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Lestat565
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I’m not angry at all that you disagree with me. I’m not saying a god can’t exist only that there is no evidence for it. The Bible is no more evidence of god than the Quran is. The Bible not only contradicts itself many times but it contradicts proven facts. My beliefs in these matters have nothing to do with weather someone hurt me or not. That is a common thing the religious put on atheist. You have yet to show any evidence for anything and have chosen to ignore many of the points I’ve made. And now you try to dismiss me by saying. “The large part of I can see in what you've written is disdain and caricature and very little of respect; we've passed the point of civility clearly.” Yet I’m not angry or upset or even that surprised with that. Why is my poop fairy comment any different then the belief of god. I’d have just as much evidence for it as anyone does of god if I actually believed in it. Which is no evidence whatsoever. I have read the Bible and it’s not something you should get moral guidance from. It advocates murder, Slavery, rape, and genocide. To name a few things. And remember me disagreeing with you is not me being a dick. Anymore than you disagreeing with me makes you one.
The best answer is to live on impulse. Diddle your clit, eat chocolate, wear makeup. Does Jesus cry when you masturbate? Who gives a fuck. Just do it.
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You picked some shoddy examples of sins. There's nothing wrong with eating chocolate or wearing makeup :/. There'd only be something wrong with it if we were doing it for the wrong reasons. And there's not a *huge* lot wrong with 'diddling your clit' either - though it is not the best thing you can do for your soul... there are more wrong reasons you can do that for...
What we do is an extension of what we believe.
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Well aren't you quite the idealist. What we do is an extension of the real world we live in. Life is a constant process of adaptation. Your soul is suffering from a harsh unrelenting superego. You need to get comfortable in your skin, howl at the moon, and go to the cemetery at midnight to piss on graves. Dump a shit on the gravestone of your old headmaster while your at it. He should reap what he sows.
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We Christians come in all stripes... I just happen to be an idealist one.
As for pissing on graves... why would I want to ruin my own favorite beauty spot? I love hanging out in cemeteries (my favourite YouTube channel is 'Ask a Mortician'). And getting an Antisocial Behavior Order and ruining the lives of some poor grieving people is not my idea of fun. Howling at the moon would be awesome though.
--
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Really? Howling at the moon. Maybe there is hope for you. Very few clergy of Christian churches are able to connect with Realist type personalities, which are almost the antithesis of Idealists. Indeed, I will have to check out 'Ask a Mortician' on YouTube.
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You haven't met my pastors and ministers. 'Clergy' is such a dated and loaded word.
The guy's name is Ben. He has a wife and 2 kids, a goofy laugh, likes his food, rides a motorbike and spends his time figuring out how to house the local refugees.
Is howling at the moon a realist trait? Sounds like something out of a werewolf film to me... I prefer singing opera solos in concerts - or just spontaneously, at work, when I need a self-expressive vent. I love it when you get a really high ceiling - the echoes... there's a chapel where I work and I go there and sing to myself sometimes, when the urge takes me. That's howling at the moon, for me. All that's lacking is the moon. Do you howl when you're happy?
Yes, Caitlin Doughty is a mortician YouTuber. I love the way she explains the science of human decomposition. I got into it shortly after my grandmother died.
There's nothing even minutely wrong with self pleasuring and how could it possibly affect your soul? What are the wrong reasons? Experiencing pleasure?
--
Grunewald
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Here we go again. How dare I say something you don't agree with?
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Lestat565
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You can say whatever you like, but so can I disagree with you. Evading the questions I asked with that comment is evidence of the paucity of your position: how about a coherent reasoned response rather than irrelevant nonsense?
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Grunewald
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Why do I need a reasoned response? Give me a reasoned response as to why the universe is not the dreamworld of some alien being, or to why the earth isn't cube-shaped...
I know God. I'm happy with knowing him. Arguments are just arguments. There will always be a more sophisticated argument to knock yours flat... until you in turn think of yet another more sophisticated argument to beat that one. Philosophical arguments can't make one hair on our heads change colour. So they can't engender or do away with a God. I am convinced he is there because I know him. I'm convinced he will still be there no matter what we say or believe or don't believe about him.
She makes a point. Even if you believe in a god that created us. He made apart of our body that gave us pleasure and then expected us not to use it. That makes no sense. When it comes to a soul. It’s never been proven whatsoever that that even exists.
--
Ellenna
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Yep, why would a god create for women a part of the body which has no purpose except to provide pleasure and than make it a sin to do anything to experience that pleasure?