So you don't think OP's family are being very christian, but you support their warnings about the punishment for using his/her own mind? How very christian of you.
Anyone who reads my post will be able to see that that's not what I said. But since that post is a bit tl;dr, let us backtrack a little.
I said that according to the Bible, faith is a personal decision.
I also said that using hell to intimidate or threaten someone is not a Christian thing to do.
But if a loved one is at risk of doing something that (as far as you can see) is going cause them great harm, and they can't see that harm, what person in their right mind wouldn't at least want to warn them? Of course Christian parents, if they love their kids, would want their kids to understand what safety they will forfeit, if they forfeit Christ! Of course they would tell them about hell! The same as they would tell them about kidnappers, rapists, murderers and anything or anyone else that could put them in danger.
There's a right and a wrong way to be concerned about someone's eternal security. But apathy or neglect are not signs of love any more than beating people over the head with threats and fear-mongering are.
There's a huge difference between making your children aware of the dangers of kidnappers, rapists and murderers and the dangers of the wrath of a non-existent god who'll condemn them to eternal suffering in a non-existent hell.
The former is being realistic, the latter if child abuse.
Only if God is non-existent - and you as a parent are convinced that he doesn't. Then I agree it would be abuse.
But if God exists, it's keeping them from a real danger.
Why is your god the right god? There are over four thousand religions in the world today yet everyone thinks they are right. Why do yo believe yours is right when you have no more evidence for your belief then any of the other religions
Well atheism has the most actual evidence to support it. Even our religion book admits that. So i'm going with atheism. Have fun talking to a non-existant person.
I never said atheism is right I’ve never said that. Your putting words in my mouth.
You know god because you met him. Then your either a lier or your delusional. I’m going with lier but who knows.
So you think telling a child that if he doesn’t believe in your particular god he’s going to suffer for all eternity in hell isn't child abuse? If hell exists god is not good or loving. What crime could possibly justify a eternity of suffering? And what crime are you guilty of that would send you to that?
Being Satan, for one. That is what it was made for. Now they use it as an excuse that "if you do this, this'll happen" when, if you read the bible, you're basically let off scott free as long as you believe in the religion before death
There are lots of answers of both sides of the debate. But faith isn't about having the most convincing argument. And we know that a lot of life doesn't make sense or seem fair, even if you take God out of the equation. It's the same world whether you believe God exists or not. And irrespective of what we believe about him, if God is there, then he's there.
If hell is real, the caring thing is to warn people how to avoid it. Just like if a person is about to walk backwards off a cliff, you warn them. Not by shaming or belittling, or trying to use the cliff to manipulate them. But by saying 'Watch out there's a cliff edge behind you!' As distasteful as he sounds to you (believe me, malaria, mass shootings, Alzheimer's and many, many other things are distasteful to me and I wish I could just disbelieve them out of existence...), if it's dangerous and it's there, we need to protect people from it.
The problem is that you have no proof that heaven or hell or god for that matter exists. And for a just and loving god to exist hell cant exist. What’s worse that you believe that your god is a monster or that you don’t understand that you believe that your god is a monster. Hell and the threat of hell is a manipulation. Same as Santa is to make kids behave. Only with Santa your not telling kids that if they don’t behave they will burn and suffer for eternity. Just because you believe in something doesn’t make it a reality. If I said I believe in a magic poop fairy it doesn’t make that a reality and if I’m trying to make other people believe in the power of the magic poop fairy. People should challenge that belief. Just like they should challenge the belief of any god. A lack of evidence is not evidence. And there is no evidence of god.
The proof I have is what I have lived through, and the Bible texts, and various other references from the secular archeological record.
That being said... there are many other things we subject to far less scrutiny than we subject belief in God, and yet we will still entertain at least the possibility that they are real. Like parallel universes, extraterrestrial life... my faith does not depend on a 100% fully supported case that would stand in a court of law, in order to hold. And yet the author Frank Morrison demonstrates in his book 'Who moved the stone?' that there is enough evidence for the Resurrection for it to pass muster in a law court.
The large part of I can see in what you've written is disdain and caricature and very little of respect; we've passed the point of civility clearly. Sigh... If I'm to spend my time writing to you I'll only do it on an equal footing. Your parallels to magic poop fairies aren't necessarily applicable to my situation just because you want them to be.
But I'll stop there. Your anger that I dare express a view that you disagree with, or that was perhaps shared by someone who hurt you once, does not make you right.
I’m not angry at all that you disagree with me. I’m not saying a god can’t exist only that there is no evidence for it. The Bible is no more evidence of god than the Quran is. The Bible not only contradicts itself many times but it contradicts proven facts. My beliefs in these matters have nothing to do with weather someone hurt me or not. That is a common thing the religious put on atheist. You have yet to show any evidence for anything and have chosen to ignore many of the points I’ve made. And now you try to dismiss me by saying. “The large part of I can see in what you've written is disdain and caricature and very little of respect; we've passed the point of civility clearly.” Yet I’m not angry or upset or even that surprised with that. Why is my poop fairy comment any different then the belief of god. I’d have just as much evidence for it as anyone does of god if I actually believed in it. Which is no evidence whatsoever. I have read the Bible and it’s not something you should get moral guidance from. It advocates murder, Slavery, rape, and genocide. To name a few things. And remember me disagreeing with you is not me being a dick. Anymore than you disagreeing with me makes you one.
You picked some shoddy examples of sins. There's nothing wrong with eating chocolate or wearing makeup :/. There'd only be something wrong with it if we were doing it for the wrong reasons. And there's not a *huge* lot wrong with 'diddling your clit' either - though it is not the best thing you can do for your soul... there are more wrong reasons you can do that for...
Well aren't you quite the idealist. What we do is an extension of the real world we live in. Life is a constant process of adaptation. Your soul is suffering from a harsh unrelenting superego. You need to get comfortable in your skin, howl at the moon, and go to the cemetery at midnight to piss on graves. Dump a shit on the gravestone of your old headmaster while your at it. He should reap what he sows.
There's nothing even minutely wrong with self pleasuring and how could it possibly affect your soul? What are the wrong reasons? Experiencing pleasure?
Is it normal that I'm not a Christian?
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So you don't think OP's family are being very christian, but you support their warnings about the punishment for using his/her own mind? How very christian of you.
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Grunewald
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Anyone who reads my post will be able to see that that's not what I said. But since that post is a bit tl;dr, let us backtrack a little.
I said that according to the Bible, faith is a personal decision.
I also said that using hell to intimidate or threaten someone is not a Christian thing to do.
But if a loved one is at risk of doing something that (as far as you can see) is going cause them great harm, and they can't see that harm, what person in their right mind wouldn't at least want to warn them? Of course Christian parents, if they love their kids, would want their kids to understand what safety they will forfeit, if they forfeit Christ! Of course they would tell them about hell! The same as they would tell them about kidnappers, rapists, murderers and anything or anyone else that could put them in danger.
There's a right and a wrong way to be concerned about someone's eternal security. But apathy or neglect are not signs of love any more than beating people over the head with threats and fear-mongering are.
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Ellenna
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Lestat565
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There's a huge difference between making your children aware of the dangers of kidnappers, rapists and murderers and the dangers of the wrath of a non-existent god who'll condemn them to eternal suffering in a non-existent hell.
The former is being realistic, the latter if child abuse.
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Only if God is non-existent - and you as a parent are convinced that he doesn't. Then I agree it would be abuse.
But if God exists, it's keeping them from a real danger.
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Lestat565
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Why is your god the right god? There are over four thousand religions in the world today yet everyone thinks they are right. Why do yo believe yours is right when you have no more evidence for your belief then any of the other religions
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When there are four thousand viewpoints on God, how ca you be sure that atheism is right??
I know God because I have met him.
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No you haven't, you are delusional
Well atheism has the most actual evidence to support it. Even our religion book admits that. So i'm going with atheism. Have fun talking to a non-existant person.
I never said atheism is right I’ve never said that. Your putting words in my mouth.
You know god because you met him. Then your either a lier or your delusional. I’m going with lier but who knows.
So you think telling a child that if he doesn’t believe in your particular god he’s going to suffer for all eternity in hell isn't child abuse? If hell exists god is not good or loving. What crime could possibly justify a eternity of suffering? And what crime are you guilty of that would send you to that?
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Being Satan, for one. That is what it was made for. Now they use it as an excuse that "if you do this, this'll happen" when, if you read the bible, you're basically let off scott free as long as you believe in the religion before death
There are lots of answers of both sides of the debate. But faith isn't about having the most convincing argument. And we know that a lot of life doesn't make sense or seem fair, even if you take God out of the equation. It's the same world whether you believe God exists or not. And irrespective of what we believe about him, if God is there, then he's there.
If hell is real, the caring thing is to warn people how to avoid it. Just like if a person is about to walk backwards off a cliff, you warn them. Not by shaming or belittling, or trying to use the cliff to manipulate them. But by saying 'Watch out there's a cliff edge behind you!' As distasteful as he sounds to you (believe me, malaria, mass shootings, Alzheimer's and many, many other things are distasteful to me and I wish I could just disbelieve them out of existence...), if it's dangerous and it's there, we need to protect people from it.
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The problem is that you have no proof that heaven or hell or god for that matter exists. And for a just and loving god to exist hell cant exist. What’s worse that you believe that your god is a monster or that you don’t understand that you believe that your god is a monster. Hell and the threat of hell is a manipulation. Same as Santa is to make kids behave. Only with Santa your not telling kids that if they don’t behave they will burn and suffer for eternity. Just because you believe in something doesn’t make it a reality. If I said I believe in a magic poop fairy it doesn’t make that a reality and if I’m trying to make other people believe in the power of the magic poop fairy. People should challenge that belief. Just like they should challenge the belief of any god. A lack of evidence is not evidence. And there is no evidence of god.
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If there was proof it wouldn't be faith.
No one knows either way.
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Lestat565
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And no, it would exactly be faith. Faith is just a belief. No particular logical backing or anything required
I completely agree. No one atheist or otherwise who say they know god exists or doesn’t is full of crap. We don’t truly know cause we can’t know.
The proof I have is what I have lived through, and the Bible texts, and various other references from the secular archeological record.
That being said... there are many other things we subject to far less scrutiny than we subject belief in God, and yet we will still entertain at least the possibility that they are real. Like parallel universes, extraterrestrial life... my faith does not depend on a 100% fully supported case that would stand in a court of law, in order to hold. And yet the author Frank Morrison demonstrates in his book 'Who moved the stone?' that there is enough evidence for the Resurrection for it to pass muster in a law court.
The large part of I can see in what you've written is disdain and caricature and very little of respect; we've passed the point of civility clearly. Sigh... If I'm to spend my time writing to you I'll only do it on an equal footing. Your parallels to magic poop fairies aren't necessarily applicable to my situation just because you want them to be.
But I'll stop there. Your anger that I dare express a view that you disagree with, or that was perhaps shared by someone who hurt you once, does not make you right.
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I’m not angry at all that you disagree with me. I’m not saying a god can’t exist only that there is no evidence for it. The Bible is no more evidence of god than the Quran is. The Bible not only contradicts itself many times but it contradicts proven facts. My beliefs in these matters have nothing to do with weather someone hurt me or not. That is a common thing the religious put on atheist. You have yet to show any evidence for anything and have chosen to ignore many of the points I’ve made. And now you try to dismiss me by saying. “The large part of I can see in what you've written is disdain and caricature and very little of respect; we've passed the point of civility clearly.” Yet I’m not angry or upset or even that surprised with that. Why is my poop fairy comment any different then the belief of god. I’d have just as much evidence for it as anyone does of god if I actually believed in it. Which is no evidence whatsoever. I have read the Bible and it’s not something you should get moral guidance from. It advocates murder, Slavery, rape, and genocide. To name a few things. And remember me disagreeing with you is not me being a dick. Anymore than you disagreeing with me makes you one.
The best answer is to live on impulse. Diddle your clit, eat chocolate, wear makeup. Does Jesus cry when you masturbate? Who gives a fuck. Just do it.
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You picked some shoddy examples of sins. There's nothing wrong with eating chocolate or wearing makeup :/. There'd only be something wrong with it if we were doing it for the wrong reasons. And there's not a *huge* lot wrong with 'diddling your clit' either - though it is not the best thing you can do for your soul... there are more wrong reasons you can do that for...
What we do is an extension of what we believe.
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Well aren't you quite the idealist. What we do is an extension of the real world we live in. Life is a constant process of adaptation. Your soul is suffering from a harsh unrelenting superego. You need to get comfortable in your skin, howl at the moon, and go to the cemetery at midnight to piss on graves. Dump a shit on the gravestone of your old headmaster while your at it. He should reap what he sows.
There's nothing even minutely wrong with self pleasuring and how could it possibly affect your soul? What are the wrong reasons? Experiencing pleasure?