"And that doesn't make your opinions correct either."
True. Obviously I personally still believe they are, though.
"There is no proof that there is not god."
That's ridiculous. There's no proof there are no unicorns, goblins or fairies either. Do you believe in those too? You should believe something when it's actually proven. The burden of proof is on you to prove your God, NOT on me to disprove your God.
"The proof that god exists is the fact that we can conceive of an all powerful, perfect being. If we were in the dark constantly and had never experienced light, then you wouldn't be able to conceive of light. Since we can conceive of an all powerful, perfect being, we've obviously had contact with a one in the past."
Thank you for this explanation. I've never before in my life came across it. However, I still reject it, because I can conceive of all sorts of crazy stuff. I don't think that automatically means I've then had contact with it in the past. That's absurd.
BTW, suppose you can prove the existence of A God, why would it then be your particular God, Jehovah?
You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say that the god that exists is my god. I have no proof that it is. And, no you cannot come up with any idea that does not have a basis in reality. I dare you to try.
"The burden of proof is on you to prove your God, NOT on me to disprove your God."
Huh, that's not how American law works. Innocent until proven guilty? Also, almost all scientists have theories that haven't been proven but have evidence saying that they might be true. You believe in things that are not proven, everyone does. Every scientist has faith. And if we're really going to go there, then I might as well state that you have faith that this whole world actually exists and is not a figment of your imagination. You have not proven that this world is real, because of the fact that it might not be real. Philosophy says you cannot base everything on your senses, if so, then how do you know this world exists?
"You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say that the god that exists is my god."
Wow, I honestly didn't see that one coming. Virtually all Christians I've spoken to are adamant their God exists. I was expecting you to be similar. I'm glad you're not, but I very much doubt if you're an actual, genuine Christian then.
"And, no you cannot come up with any idea that does not have a basis in reality. I dare you to try."
I agree, but the fact that you can conceive of something, doesn't automatically mean it exists. For example, I can conceive of a Siamese quadruplet. Does that also mean it exists? No, only in THEORY does it exist, let alone I've ever been in contact with one in the past. The same could very well be the case for God.
"Huh, that's not how American law works."
Well, I'm not American (I happen to be Dutch), but I'm pretty sure BOTH our countries know the concept of the burden of proof. For example, if I say I'm the reincarnation of Napoleon, it's not your job to disprove this claim, but mine to prove it. Innocent until proven guilty indeed.
"You believe in things that are not proven, everyone does."
You're right, but only proof actually makes it completely watertight. I will admit that this is an issue I'm struggling very much with BTW.
"Every scientist has faith."
Not in the same things they don't.
"Philosophy says you cannot base everything on your senses, if so, then how do you know this world exists?"
There is more than just one philosophy. And even though our senses may be limited, they're nonetheless all we got.
First: "There is more than just one philosophy. And even though our senses may be limited, they're nonetheless all we got."
That still doesn't prove that this world exists.
Second: "Not in the same things they don't."
I never said it was in the same things. That point is irrelevant.
Third: I am also not American. I assumed you were, my mistake.
Fourth: "I agree, but the fact that you can conceive of something, doesn't automatically mean it exists. For example, I can conceive of a Siamese quadruplet. Does that also mean it exists? No, only in THEORY does it exist, let alone I've ever been in contact with one in the past. The same could very well be the case for God."
Everything has a BASIS in truth. Meaning everything is based on one or more things that are real. Siamese are real, and quadruplets are real. Nothing can be created by humans, everything is just combinations of realities put together to create fantasy. Is something we do not remember experiencing, but because we can conceive a deity, in my opinion means there is one, although not necessarily my God.
Fifth: "I'm glad you're not, but I very much doubt if you're an actual, genuine Christian then."
Not all Christians are the same, there is no way to define a genuine Christian. Since there is no such thing as a Christian. The word Christian literally means "Christ-like" since there is no person who is "Christ-Like" that's why I refer to myself as a disciple. So no, I'm not a Christian. I'm a disciple. I try to follow Christ.
Sixth: I'm getting very tired of this conversation. It's no fault of yours, you are exceptional at debating your views. Let's just agree to disagree since there can be no winner.
"That still doesn't prove that this world exists."
Depends on what you accept as proof. I certainly accept that which the senses allow us to discern as proof, because there's nothing to hold on to otherwise. Life already generates more than enough confusion and uncertainty I think.
"I never said it was in the same things. That point is irrelevant."
You're right, that point indeed IS irrelevant. It's about the fact they have faith in certain things in the FIRST place (which I admit they have). However, I suspect their faith in those things is an EDUCATED guess, whereas RELIGIOUS faith is simply a BLIND guess. Again, I'm not too confident on this issue. I find it very difficult.
"I am also not American. I assumed you were, my mistake."
No harm done. I assumed the same about you.
"Everything has a BASIS in truth. Meaning everything is based on one or more things that are real. Siamese are real, and quadruplets are real. Nothing can be created by humans, everything is just combinations of realities put together to create fantasy"
I totally agree with this, but NOT with your subsequent conclusion, namely:
"because we can conceive a deity, in my opinion means there is one, although not necessarily my God."
You're in effect saying that everything we can conceive of is real, merely because everything has a basis in truth. I think that's utterly ridiculous. The fact that all kinds of combinations of realities can be made, does not AUTOMATICALLY mean they then also actually exist. A Siamese quadruplet is a good example of that. A Siamese quadruplet is real, but ONLY in theory. The fact something CAN exist, doesn't automatically mean it then also DOES exist.
"Not all Christians are the same, there is no way to define a genuine Christian. Since there is no such thing as a Christian. The word Christian literally means "Christ-like" since there is no person who is "Christ-Like" that's why I refer to myself as a disciple. So no, I'm not a Christian. I'm a disciple. I try to follow Christ."
No, not all Christians are the same, that's correct. However, to call yourself a Christian or a disciple (I think that's just a silly wordgame BTW), I think you MUST believe (and insist) your God is real. A "Christian" (or "disciple") who doesn't is being hypocritical in my view. After all, one of the things the Bible says is:
"He that doubteth is damned." - Rom. 14:23.
I've also never quite understood what's so great about Jesus. Really no offense, but according to the Bible, he said/did some really fucked up things:
"I'm getting very tired of this conversation. It's no fault of yours, you are exceptional at debating your views. Let's just agree to disagree since there can be no winner. "
It's also making me pretty tired, all the more since English isn't even my first language. Thank you for the remark about my debating skills, you're not bad yourself BTW. Anyway, agreeing to disagree may indeed be the wisest thing to do.
So long, and my sincere apologies for any offense I may have caused.
Is it normal Christians whine about respect?
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"And that doesn't make your opinions correct either."
True. Obviously I personally still believe they are, though.
"There is no proof that there is not god."
That's ridiculous. There's no proof there are no unicorns, goblins or fairies either. Do you believe in those too? You should believe something when it's actually proven. The burden of proof is on you to prove your God, NOT on me to disprove your God.
"The proof that god exists is the fact that we can conceive of an all powerful, perfect being. If we were in the dark constantly and had never experienced light, then you wouldn't be able to conceive of light. Since we can conceive of an all powerful, perfect being, we've obviously had contact with a one in the past."
Thank you for this explanation. I've never before in my life came across it. However, I still reject it, because I can conceive of all sorts of crazy stuff. I don't think that automatically means I've then had contact with it in the past. That's absurd.
BTW, suppose you can prove the existence of A God, why would it then be your particular God, Jehovah?
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et12356
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You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say that the god that exists is my god. I have no proof that it is. And, no you cannot come up with any idea that does not have a basis in reality. I dare you to try.
"The burden of proof is on you to prove your God, NOT on me to disprove your God."
Huh, that's not how American law works. Innocent until proven guilty? Also, almost all scientists have theories that haven't been proven but have evidence saying that they might be true. You believe in things that are not proven, everyone does. Every scientist has faith. And if we're really going to go there, then I might as well state that you have faith that this whole world actually exists and is not a figment of your imagination. You have not proven that this world is real, because of the fact that it might not be real. Philosophy says you cannot base everything on your senses, if so, then how do you know this world exists?
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"You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say that the god that exists is my god."
Wow, I honestly didn't see that one coming. Virtually all Christians I've spoken to are adamant their God exists. I was expecting you to be similar. I'm glad you're not, but I very much doubt if you're an actual, genuine Christian then.
"And, no you cannot come up with any idea that does not have a basis in reality. I dare you to try."
I agree, but the fact that you can conceive of something, doesn't automatically mean it exists. For example, I can conceive of a Siamese quadruplet. Does that also mean it exists? No, only in THEORY does it exist, let alone I've ever been in contact with one in the past. The same could very well be the case for God.
"Huh, that's not how American law works."
Well, I'm not American (I happen to be Dutch), but I'm pretty sure BOTH our countries know the concept of the burden of proof. For example, if I say I'm the reincarnation of Napoleon, it's not your job to disprove this claim, but mine to prove it. Innocent until proven guilty indeed.
"You believe in things that are not proven, everyone does."
You're right, but only proof actually makes it completely watertight. I will admit that this is an issue I'm struggling very much with BTW.
"Every scientist has faith."
Not in the same things they don't.
"Philosophy says you cannot base everything on your senses, if so, then how do you know this world exists?"
There is more than just one philosophy. And even though our senses may be limited, they're nonetheless all we got.
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First: "There is more than just one philosophy. And even though our senses may be limited, they're nonetheless all we got."
That still doesn't prove that this world exists.
Second: "Not in the same things they don't."
I never said it was in the same things. That point is irrelevant.
Third: I am also not American. I assumed you were, my mistake.
Fourth: "I agree, but the fact that you can conceive of something, doesn't automatically mean it exists. For example, I can conceive of a Siamese quadruplet. Does that also mean it exists? No, only in THEORY does it exist, let alone I've ever been in contact with one in the past. The same could very well be the case for God."
Everything has a BASIS in truth. Meaning everything is based on one or more things that are real. Siamese are real, and quadruplets are real. Nothing can be created by humans, everything is just combinations of realities put together to create fantasy. Is something we do not remember experiencing, but because we can conceive a deity, in my opinion means there is one, although not necessarily my God.
Fifth: "I'm glad you're not, but I very much doubt if you're an actual, genuine Christian then."
Not all Christians are the same, there is no way to define a genuine Christian. Since there is no such thing as a Christian. The word Christian literally means "Christ-like" since there is no person who is "Christ-Like" that's why I refer to myself as a disciple. So no, I'm not a Christian. I'm a disciple. I try to follow Christ.
Sixth: I'm getting very tired of this conversation. It's no fault of yours, you are exceptional at debating your views. Let's just agree to disagree since there can be no winner.
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"That still doesn't prove that this world exists."
Depends on what you accept as proof. I certainly accept that which the senses allow us to discern as proof, because there's nothing to hold on to otherwise. Life already generates more than enough confusion and uncertainty I think.
"I never said it was in the same things. That point is irrelevant."
You're right, that point indeed IS irrelevant. It's about the fact they have faith in certain things in the FIRST place (which I admit they have). However, I suspect their faith in those things is an EDUCATED guess, whereas RELIGIOUS faith is simply a BLIND guess. Again, I'm not too confident on this issue. I find it very difficult.
"I am also not American. I assumed you were, my mistake."
No harm done. I assumed the same about you.
"Everything has a BASIS in truth. Meaning everything is based on one or more things that are real. Siamese are real, and quadruplets are real. Nothing can be created by humans, everything is just combinations of realities put together to create fantasy"
I totally agree with this, but NOT with your subsequent conclusion, namely:
"because we can conceive a deity, in my opinion means there is one, although not necessarily my God."
You're in effect saying that everything we can conceive of is real, merely because everything has a basis in truth. I think that's utterly ridiculous. The fact that all kinds of combinations of realities can be made, does not AUTOMATICALLY mean they then also actually exist. A Siamese quadruplet is a good example of that. A Siamese quadruplet is real, but ONLY in theory. The fact something CAN exist, doesn't automatically mean it then also DOES exist.
"Not all Christians are the same, there is no way to define a genuine Christian. Since there is no such thing as a Christian. The word Christian literally means "Christ-like" since there is no person who is "Christ-Like" that's why I refer to myself as a disciple. So no, I'm not a Christian. I'm a disciple. I try to follow Christ."
No, not all Christians are the same, that's correct. However, to call yourself a Christian or a disciple (I think that's just a silly wordgame BTW), I think you MUST believe (and insist) your God is real. A "Christian" (or "disciple") who doesn't is being hypocritical in my view. After all, one of the things the Bible says is:
"He that doubteth is damned." - Rom. 14:23.
I've also never quite understood what's so great about Jesus. Really no offense, but according to the Bible, he said/did some really fucked up things:
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.nl/2010/11/reasons-to-be-ashamed-and-not-fan-of.html
"I'm getting very tired of this conversation. It's no fault of yours, you are exceptional at debating your views. Let's just agree to disagree since there can be no winner. "
It's also making me pretty tired, all the more since English isn't even my first language. Thank you for the remark about my debating skills, you're not bad yourself BTW. Anyway, agreeing to disagree may indeed be the wisest thing to do.
So long, and my sincere apologies for any offense I may have caused.