"LDS is a form of Christianity as the religion is Christ based."
I mean no offence to you but I have looked at both (though I admit that I am not an expert on Mormonism) and to me they are separate religions. Lets be real how many Christians believe that Jesus resurrected himself in America and was walking around there? To me it doesn't make Mormonism any better or worse than Christianity, it is just different. Though I guess Mormon-Christianity would work, anyway it is not up to me. If a majority of people believe Mormonism to be under the umbrella of Christianity then I guess it is so regardless of what I think.
"In either way, faith or no faith, it is wise to remain humble lest life force you to humility. "
Agreed.
"That's one of the purposes of the story of Helaman."
Sorry I don't see it. Let's look at what God apparently does "he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence".
So we have genocide, terrorism, starvation and biological warfare. Honestly I can't see how you can teach people positive things with this method. I also can't see how this was God's best shot at teaching humility. If God is perfect then his actions should be perfect right? So you're telling me genocide, terrorism, starvation and biological warfare is the perfect way to teach humility?
I do thank you for telling me what I have to do to get sent to hell if I ever meet the Mormon God because if that is God then I am going to take my chances with Satan.
If that is his idea of a good lesson, I shudder to think what his heaven is like.
They don't believe Jesus resurrected himself in America, rather he visited when he left the middle East. Christianity is literally defined as a Christ based religion. There are many denominations of Christianity. Not all Christians adhere to the exact same theology, not by a longshot. However, all Christians worship Christ. LDS is no different. Varied in theology but still Christ based.
Like I said, I can't comment on the morality of God's actions in Helaman. The "Mormon God" isn't thay much different from the generic Judeo-Christian God. Helaman isn't much worse than many Bible stories detailing the vengefulness of God. Our God is not a seperate God although you may choose to believe different.
"Like I said, I can't comment on the morality of God's actions in Helaman. The "Mormon God" isn't thay much different from the generic Judeo-Christian God. Helaman isn't much worse than many Bible stories detailing the vengefulness of God."
Oh I would agree with that. So can I ask why would you worship a genocidal terrorist who has also used starvation and biological warfare? And why would you think his heaven would be place you would want to go to?
If it is all true (I don't believe it is obviously) but if so. Why not take a gamble on hell anyway? Imagine you have Osama bin laden on one side and a stranger on the other. You have to stay at one of their houses for eternity. Would you go for Osama's or the stranger? I'd know which one I would pick, at worst the stranger (Satan) could only be as bad as Osama (God) but there would be a good chance he is better, considering Osama hates him. Why waste your time worshiping and following rules when hell is a better bet anyway?
I worship God because I trust that there is a higher meaning to the Universe and to God's actions than the superficial and comparatively meaningless (in terms of the entire universe) happenings that we witness in our short lifespan as human beings.
I worship God because in all of what I have studied as far as science, The Big Bang Theory, Evolution, The Inflaton Theory etc. is so perfect and beautiful in all of it's inner mathematics and workings that I have a hard time believing that there is not a grand creator who has set it into motion. Whether that Grand Creator is a "person", which is probably all we could perceive it/them as as human beings of limited perceptive abilities, I can't say.
With all due respect, I can't entertain your question regarding heaven and hell. You ask with the understandable perception that it is a simplified, somewhat South Park cartoonish place when in reality, I believe it, Mormons as a whole believe it and many Christians believe it to be far more beautiful and perfect in it's workings than we, as corporeal and inferior human beings can perceive. As even taught in the Mormon church, as sung in our very hymns, we have one life here on Earth and we are not to waste it worrying about the kingdom of heaven when there is work on this Earth to do. I, and many of my fellow Mormons, abide by that teaching. I don't worry. I only have faith that when I am judged, it will be done with a justice so divine, that my current perception is unable to grasp it.
We do not follow "rules" simply as a ticket to the afterlife. If our obedience decided our place in the afterlife then, what is even ADMITTED by Mormons, is that we would all be fucked. None of us are capable of perfection, hence, why we see Christ as a role model to aspire to.
I know that this will probably be difficult to believe for you. I am just as aware and as educated regarding science, logic, religious skepticism and so on as your run of the mill "enlightened atheist". However, I made my choice based on what felt right to me rather than what didn't feel right.
If atheists are right then they should feel fine with this. After all, if I only get one life, I should live it in a way that I would like to live it, not in a way that YOU feel is right because you see it as right for you. I harm no one and hold no outstanding prejudices. I ask only for respect rather than ridicule. This is who I want to be and I will change for no man, only should God will it.
Ah the teleological argument. I would like to sincerely thank you for describing why you believe as you do. It really does help people like me understand, I really think theists do a service for humanity when they describe why they believe as they do.
I have two questions and I totally understand if you don't have the time to answer I know I must have taken much of your time.
If as you yourself seem to say that the grand creator is complex beyond our understanding than who created him? Surely if the universe being too perfect is evidence of a perfect creator than he too needs a creator.
My second question is why would such a universe be evidence for the Mormon God in particular?
"If atheists are right then they should feel fine with this. After all, if I only get one life, I should live it in a way that I would like to live it, not in a way that YOU feel is right because you see it as right for you."
Please let me assure you that even if it was in my power to compel people to believe a certain thing I would not do it. I enjoy discussing why I believe ideas are good or bad but I would not force people to hold the ideas that I feel are good and disregard the ideas I think are bad even if I was able to.
1) God is infinite, however, as far as the who created God deal goes, I don't know how to help you but I'm kinda tired.
2) The Mormon God is the Judeo-Christian God. It is the Abrahamic God. It is the God of the Bible. It is God in the most general sense of what God is in addition to our own unique philosophical views of God.
If your question is "Why be a Mormon", it is because I prefer their concept of continuing revelation to the rest of Christianity's idea that when the last chapter of the Bible was written, the game was over and we wait for the rapture. They say that God can't communicate with us despite the Bible clearly stating that we are to pray to God and reveive answers from God. Mormons also believe
Oh my God this phone is such a jerk to type on. Mormons believe the same thing that I do in regards to continuing revelation and are not nearly as hellfire and brimstone as other denominations I attended. Those are the two things I could not stand with other churches because it didn't seem right to me. Mormons are much more open to revelation and interpretation than other denominations and support the concept of seeking answers for oneself rather than being unable to take that liberty and instead being forced to consult clergy.
On another post you said you believe in evolution. How does that go along with your faith in God/Christ? You don't believe He created our world and the life in it? Just curious...
Yes, I believe that God created the world, however, I believe that evolution was one of his methods.
Evolution isn't exactly hotly debated in the LDS church. Many Mormons believe in it as I have known many Mormons who have studied Quantum Mechanics and Physics.
Is it normal Christians whine about respect?
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"LDS is a form of Christianity as the religion is Christ based."
I mean no offence to you but I have looked at both (though I admit that I am not an expert on Mormonism) and to me they are separate religions. Lets be real how many Christians believe that Jesus resurrected himself in America and was walking around there? To me it doesn't make Mormonism any better or worse than Christianity, it is just different. Though I guess Mormon-Christianity would work, anyway it is not up to me. If a majority of people believe Mormonism to be under the umbrella of Christianity then I guess it is so regardless of what I think.
"In either way, faith or no faith, it is wise to remain humble lest life force you to humility. "
Agreed.
"That's one of the purposes of the story of Helaman."
Sorry I don't see it. Let's look at what God apparently does "he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence".
So we have genocide, terrorism, starvation and biological warfare. Honestly I can't see how you can teach people positive things with this method. I also can't see how this was God's best shot at teaching humility. If God is perfect then his actions should be perfect right? So you're telling me genocide, terrorism, starvation and biological warfare is the perfect way to teach humility?
I do thank you for telling me what I have to do to get sent to hell if I ever meet the Mormon God because if that is God then I am going to take my chances with Satan.
If that is his idea of a good lesson, I shudder to think what his heaven is like.
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NeuroNeptunian
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They don't believe Jesus resurrected himself in America, rather he visited when he left the middle East. Christianity is literally defined as a Christ based religion. There are many denominations of Christianity. Not all Christians adhere to the exact same theology, not by a longshot. However, all Christians worship Christ. LDS is no different. Varied in theology but still Christ based.
Like I said, I can't comment on the morality of God's actions in Helaman. The "Mormon God" isn't thay much different from the generic Judeo-Christian God. Helaman isn't much worse than many Bible stories detailing the vengefulness of God. Our God is not a seperate God although you may choose to believe different.
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"Like I said, I can't comment on the morality of God's actions in Helaman. The "Mormon God" isn't thay much different from the generic Judeo-Christian God. Helaman isn't much worse than many Bible stories detailing the vengefulness of God."
Oh I would agree with that. So can I ask why would you worship a genocidal terrorist who has also used starvation and biological warfare? And why would you think his heaven would be place you would want to go to?
If it is all true (I don't believe it is obviously) but if so. Why not take a gamble on hell anyway? Imagine you have Osama bin laden on one side and a stranger on the other. You have to stay at one of their houses for eternity. Would you go for Osama's or the stranger? I'd know which one I would pick, at worst the stranger (Satan) could only be as bad as Osama (God) but there would be a good chance he is better, considering Osama hates him. Why waste your time worshiping and following rules when hell is a better bet anyway?
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I worship God because I trust that there is a higher meaning to the Universe and to God's actions than the superficial and comparatively meaningless (in terms of the entire universe) happenings that we witness in our short lifespan as human beings.
I worship God because in all of what I have studied as far as science, The Big Bang Theory, Evolution, The Inflaton Theory etc. is so perfect and beautiful in all of it's inner mathematics and workings that I have a hard time believing that there is not a grand creator who has set it into motion. Whether that Grand Creator is a "person", which is probably all we could perceive it/them as as human beings of limited perceptive abilities, I can't say.
With all due respect, I can't entertain your question regarding heaven and hell. You ask with the understandable perception that it is a simplified, somewhat South Park cartoonish place when in reality, I believe it, Mormons as a whole believe it and many Christians believe it to be far more beautiful and perfect in it's workings than we, as corporeal and inferior human beings can perceive. As even taught in the Mormon church, as sung in our very hymns, we have one life here on Earth and we are not to waste it worrying about the kingdom of heaven when there is work on this Earth to do. I, and many of my fellow Mormons, abide by that teaching. I don't worry. I only have faith that when I am judged, it will be done with a justice so divine, that my current perception is unable to grasp it.
We do not follow "rules" simply as a ticket to the afterlife. If our obedience decided our place in the afterlife then, what is even ADMITTED by Mormons, is that we would all be fucked. None of us are capable of perfection, hence, why we see Christ as a role model to aspire to.
I know that this will probably be difficult to believe for you. I am just as aware and as educated regarding science, logic, religious skepticism and so on as your run of the mill "enlightened atheist". However, I made my choice based on what felt right to me rather than what didn't feel right.
If atheists are right then they should feel fine with this. After all, if I only get one life, I should live it in a way that I would like to live it, not in a way that YOU feel is right because you see it as right for you. I harm no one and hold no outstanding prejudices. I ask only for respect rather than ridicule. This is who I want to be and I will change for no man, only should God will it.
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Ah the teleological argument. I would like to sincerely thank you for describing why you believe as you do. It really does help people like me understand, I really think theists do a service for humanity when they describe why they believe as they do.
I have two questions and I totally understand if you don't have the time to answer I know I must have taken much of your time.
If as you yourself seem to say that the grand creator is complex beyond our understanding than who created him? Surely if the universe being too perfect is evidence of a perfect creator than he too needs a creator.
My second question is why would such a universe be evidence for the Mormon God in particular?
"If atheists are right then they should feel fine with this. After all, if I only get one life, I should live it in a way that I would like to live it, not in a way that YOU feel is right because you see it as right for you."
Please let me assure you that even if it was in my power to compel people to believe a certain thing I would not do it. I enjoy discussing why I believe ideas are good or bad but I would not force people to hold the ideas that I feel are good and disregard the ideas I think are bad even if I was able to.
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NeuroNeptunian
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1) God is infinite, however, as far as the who created God deal goes, I don't know how to help you but I'm kinda tired.
2) The Mormon God is the Judeo-Christian God. It is the Abrahamic God. It is the God of the Bible. It is God in the most general sense of what God is in addition to our own unique philosophical views of God.
If your question is "Why be a Mormon", it is because I prefer their concept of continuing revelation to the rest of Christianity's idea that when the last chapter of the Bible was written, the game was over and we wait for the rapture. They say that God can't communicate with us despite the Bible clearly stating that we are to pray to God and reveive answers from God. Mormons also believe
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NeuroNeptunian
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Oh my God this phone is such a jerk to type on. Mormons believe the same thing that I do in regards to continuing revelation and are not nearly as hellfire and brimstone as other denominations I attended. Those are the two things I could not stand with other churches because it didn't seem right to me. Mormons are much more open to revelation and interpretation than other denominations and support the concept of seeking answers for oneself rather than being unable to take that liberty and instead being forced to consult clergy.
On another post you said you believe in evolution. How does that go along with your faith in God/Christ? You don't believe He created our world and the life in it? Just curious...
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Yes, I believe that God created the world, however, I believe that evolution was one of his methods.
Evolution isn't exactly hotly debated in the LDS church. Many Mormons believe in it as I have known many Mormons who have studied Quantum Mechanics and Physics.
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Interesting, thanks.