I would have included Mormonism with the other religions had I of known. I don't personally consider Mormonism to be Christian.
You know if it is real and I was going to meet the Mormon God, I would have to ask about Helaman 12:13. Giving people death, terror, famine and disease was the only way to get people to remember him? Surely he could of come up with a better way than that. I mean what about writing his name in the sky or something, I hardly think it fitting for a God to resort to terrorism just to get people to remember him.
LDS is a form of Christianity as the religion is Christ based.
As far as Helaman goes, I can't really comment. It's taught that what God did was a leveling act to remind the people that without God's blessings and aid, they wouldn't have had prosperity to begin with. The citizens became conceited and attributed their good fortune purely to their efforts and fell away from having gratitude for the lord's blessings to utter conceit. His intention wasn't simply to remind them of his presence but rather that he was in control.
In the Mormon faith, the highest sin is direct treason which occurs when one has seen God/undeniable proof of God with their own eyes yet they still refuse to believe, a sin that 99.9% of humanity is incapable of committing in the living world but once committed after seeing God in the celestial kingdom, is damning. This happens in the afterlife rather than the living world, hence why we don't believe an atheist or non-Mormon would be damned. However, our theology regarding the finer points of heaven is more complicated than that.
If God were to show himself to them then they would no longer have faith as faith is belief without proof. As you probably know, Faith is the central pillar of most deity based religions.
The point I made in paragraph one is a valid point regardless of religious preference. From the atheist perspective, no one is truly 100% credited with their achievements. Not when forces of nature beyond their control exist. Not when a car accident could easily ruin your career if it handicaps you. Hence, it's not just your effort but also accommodating circumstances. In the Christian faith, it's not just you, rather, God deserves a share of he credit. In either way, faith or no faith, it is wise to remain humble lest life force you to humility. That's one of the purposes of the story of Helaman.
"LDS is a form of Christianity as the religion is Christ based."
I mean no offence to you but I have looked at both (though I admit that I am not an expert on Mormonism) and to me they are separate religions. Lets be real how many Christians believe that Jesus resurrected himself in America and was walking around there? To me it doesn't make Mormonism any better or worse than Christianity, it is just different. Though I guess Mormon-Christianity would work, anyway it is not up to me. If a majority of people believe Mormonism to be under the umbrella of Christianity then I guess it is so regardless of what I think.
"In either way, faith or no faith, it is wise to remain humble lest life force you to humility. "
Agreed.
"That's one of the purposes of the story of Helaman."
Sorry I don't see it. Let's look at what God apparently does "he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence".
So we have genocide, terrorism, starvation and biological warfare. Honestly I can't see how you can teach people positive things with this method. I also can't see how this was God's best shot at teaching humility. If God is perfect then his actions should be perfect right? So you're telling me genocide, terrorism, starvation and biological warfare is the perfect way to teach humility?
I do thank you for telling me what I have to do to get sent to hell if I ever meet the Mormon God because if that is God then I am going to take my chances with Satan.
If that is his idea of a good lesson, I shudder to think what his heaven is like.
They don't believe Jesus resurrected himself in America, rather he visited when he left the middle East. Christianity is literally defined as a Christ based religion. There are many denominations of Christianity. Not all Christians adhere to the exact same theology, not by a longshot. However, all Christians worship Christ. LDS is no different. Varied in theology but still Christ based.
Like I said, I can't comment on the morality of God's actions in Helaman. The "Mormon God" isn't thay much different from the generic Judeo-Christian God. Helaman isn't much worse than many Bible stories detailing the vengefulness of God. Our God is not a seperate God although you may choose to believe different.
"Like I said, I can't comment on the morality of God's actions in Helaman. The "Mormon God" isn't thay much different from the generic Judeo-Christian God. Helaman isn't much worse than many Bible stories detailing the vengefulness of God."
Oh I would agree with that. So can I ask why would you worship a genocidal terrorist who has also used starvation and biological warfare? And why would you think his heaven would be place you would want to go to?
If it is all true (I don't believe it is obviously) but if so. Why not take a gamble on hell anyway? Imagine you have Osama bin laden on one side and a stranger on the other. You have to stay at one of their houses for eternity. Would you go for Osama's or the stranger? I'd know which one I would pick, at worst the stranger (Satan) could only be as bad as Osama (God) but there would be a good chance he is better, considering Osama hates him. Why waste your time worshiping and following rules when hell is a better bet anyway?
I worship God because I trust that there is a higher meaning to the Universe and to God's actions than the superficial and comparatively meaningless (in terms of the entire universe) happenings that we witness in our short lifespan as human beings.
I worship God because in all of what I have studied as far as science, The Big Bang Theory, Evolution, The Inflaton Theory etc. is so perfect and beautiful in all of it's inner mathematics and workings that I have a hard time believing that there is not a grand creator who has set it into motion. Whether that Grand Creator is a "person", which is probably all we could perceive it/them as as human beings of limited perceptive abilities, I can't say.
With all due respect, I can't entertain your question regarding heaven and hell. You ask with the understandable perception that it is a simplified, somewhat South Park cartoonish place when in reality, I believe it, Mormons as a whole believe it and many Christians believe it to be far more beautiful and perfect in it's workings than we, as corporeal and inferior human beings can perceive. As even taught in the Mormon church, as sung in our very hymns, we have one life here on Earth and we are not to waste it worrying about the kingdom of heaven when there is work on this Earth to do. I, and many of my fellow Mormons, abide by that teaching. I don't worry. I only have faith that when I am judged, it will be done with a justice so divine, that my current perception is unable to grasp it.
We do not follow "rules" simply as a ticket to the afterlife. If our obedience decided our place in the afterlife then, what is even ADMITTED by Mormons, is that we would all be fucked. None of us are capable of perfection, hence, why we see Christ as a role model to aspire to.
I know that this will probably be difficult to believe for you. I am just as aware and as educated regarding science, logic, religious skepticism and so on as your run of the mill "enlightened atheist". However, I made my choice based on what felt right to me rather than what didn't feel right.
If atheists are right then they should feel fine with this. After all, if I only get one life, I should live it in a way that I would like to live it, not in a way that YOU feel is right because you see it as right for you. I harm no one and hold no outstanding prejudices. I ask only for respect rather than ridicule. This is who I want to be and I will change for no man, only should God will it.
On another post you said you believe in evolution. How does that go along with your faith in God/Christ? You don't believe He created our world and the life in it? Just curious...
Yes, I believe that God created the world, however, I believe that evolution was one of his methods.
Evolution isn't exactly hotly debated in the LDS church. Many Mormons believe in it as I have known many Mormons who have studied Quantum Mechanics and Physics.
Is it normal Christians whine about respect?
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The Mormon faith does not propose that non-believers go to hell unless they see God face to face in the afterlife and still deny him.
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SuperBenzid
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Very interesting thank you for letting me know.
I would have included Mormonism with the other religions had I of known. I don't personally consider Mormonism to be Christian.
You know if it is real and I was going to meet the Mormon God, I would have to ask about Helaman 12:13. Giving people death, terror, famine and disease was the only way to get people to remember him? Surely he could of come up with a better way than that. I mean what about writing his name in the sky or something, I hardly think it fitting for a God to resort to terrorism just to get people to remember him.
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NeuroNeptunian
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LDS is a form of Christianity as the religion is Christ based.
As far as Helaman goes, I can't really comment. It's taught that what God did was a leveling act to remind the people that without God's blessings and aid, they wouldn't have had prosperity to begin with. The citizens became conceited and attributed their good fortune purely to their efforts and fell away from having gratitude for the lord's blessings to utter conceit. His intention wasn't simply to remind them of his presence but rather that he was in control.
In the Mormon faith, the highest sin is direct treason which occurs when one has seen God/undeniable proof of God with their own eyes yet they still refuse to believe, a sin that 99.9% of humanity is incapable of committing in the living world but once committed after seeing God in the celestial kingdom, is damning. This happens in the afterlife rather than the living world, hence why we don't believe an atheist or non-Mormon would be damned. However, our theology regarding the finer points of heaven is more complicated than that.
If God were to show himself to them then they would no longer have faith as faith is belief without proof. As you probably know, Faith is the central pillar of most deity based religions.
The point I made in paragraph one is a valid point regardless of religious preference. From the atheist perspective, no one is truly 100% credited with their achievements. Not when forces of nature beyond their control exist. Not when a car accident could easily ruin your career if it handicaps you. Hence, it's not just your effort but also accommodating circumstances. In the Christian faith, it's not just you, rather, God deserves a share of he credit. In either way, faith or no faith, it is wise to remain humble lest life force you to humility. That's one of the purposes of the story of Helaman.
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"LDS is a form of Christianity as the religion is Christ based."
I mean no offence to you but I have looked at both (though I admit that I am not an expert on Mormonism) and to me they are separate religions. Lets be real how many Christians believe that Jesus resurrected himself in America and was walking around there? To me it doesn't make Mormonism any better or worse than Christianity, it is just different. Though I guess Mormon-Christianity would work, anyway it is not up to me. If a majority of people believe Mormonism to be under the umbrella of Christianity then I guess it is so regardless of what I think.
"In either way, faith or no faith, it is wise to remain humble lest life force you to humility. "
Agreed.
"That's one of the purposes of the story of Helaman."
Sorry I don't see it. Let's look at what God apparently does "he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence".
So we have genocide, terrorism, starvation and biological warfare. Honestly I can't see how you can teach people positive things with this method. I also can't see how this was God's best shot at teaching humility. If God is perfect then his actions should be perfect right? So you're telling me genocide, terrorism, starvation and biological warfare is the perfect way to teach humility?
I do thank you for telling me what I have to do to get sent to hell if I ever meet the Mormon God because if that is God then I am going to take my chances with Satan.
If that is his idea of a good lesson, I shudder to think what his heaven is like.
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They don't believe Jesus resurrected himself in America, rather he visited when he left the middle East. Christianity is literally defined as a Christ based religion. There are many denominations of Christianity. Not all Christians adhere to the exact same theology, not by a longshot. However, all Christians worship Christ. LDS is no different. Varied in theology but still Christ based.
Like I said, I can't comment on the morality of God's actions in Helaman. The "Mormon God" isn't thay much different from the generic Judeo-Christian God. Helaman isn't much worse than many Bible stories detailing the vengefulness of God. Our God is not a seperate God although you may choose to believe different.
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"Like I said, I can't comment on the morality of God's actions in Helaman. The "Mormon God" isn't thay much different from the generic Judeo-Christian God. Helaman isn't much worse than many Bible stories detailing the vengefulness of God."
Oh I would agree with that. So can I ask why would you worship a genocidal terrorist who has also used starvation and biological warfare? And why would you think his heaven would be place you would want to go to?
If it is all true (I don't believe it is obviously) but if so. Why not take a gamble on hell anyway? Imagine you have Osama bin laden on one side and a stranger on the other. You have to stay at one of their houses for eternity. Would you go for Osama's or the stranger? I'd know which one I would pick, at worst the stranger (Satan) could only be as bad as Osama (God) but there would be a good chance he is better, considering Osama hates him. Why waste your time worshiping and following rules when hell is a better bet anyway?
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I worship God because I trust that there is a higher meaning to the Universe and to God's actions than the superficial and comparatively meaningless (in terms of the entire universe) happenings that we witness in our short lifespan as human beings.
I worship God because in all of what I have studied as far as science, The Big Bang Theory, Evolution, The Inflaton Theory etc. is so perfect and beautiful in all of it's inner mathematics and workings that I have a hard time believing that there is not a grand creator who has set it into motion. Whether that Grand Creator is a "person", which is probably all we could perceive it/them as as human beings of limited perceptive abilities, I can't say.
With all due respect, I can't entertain your question regarding heaven and hell. You ask with the understandable perception that it is a simplified, somewhat South Park cartoonish place when in reality, I believe it, Mormons as a whole believe it and many Christians believe it to be far more beautiful and perfect in it's workings than we, as corporeal and inferior human beings can perceive. As even taught in the Mormon church, as sung in our very hymns, we have one life here on Earth and we are not to waste it worrying about the kingdom of heaven when there is work on this Earth to do. I, and many of my fellow Mormons, abide by that teaching. I don't worry. I only have faith that when I am judged, it will be done with a justice so divine, that my current perception is unable to grasp it.
We do not follow "rules" simply as a ticket to the afterlife. If our obedience decided our place in the afterlife then, what is even ADMITTED by Mormons, is that we would all be fucked. None of us are capable of perfection, hence, why we see Christ as a role model to aspire to.
I know that this will probably be difficult to believe for you. I am just as aware and as educated regarding science, logic, religious skepticism and so on as your run of the mill "enlightened atheist". However, I made my choice based on what felt right to me rather than what didn't feel right.
If atheists are right then they should feel fine with this. After all, if I only get one life, I should live it in a way that I would like to live it, not in a way that YOU feel is right because you see it as right for you. I harm no one and hold no outstanding prejudices. I ask only for respect rather than ridicule. This is who I want to be and I will change for no man, only should God will it.
On another post you said you believe in evolution. How does that go along with your faith in God/Christ? You don't believe He created our world and the life in it? Just curious...
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Yes, I believe that God created the world, however, I believe that evolution was one of his methods.
Evolution isn't exactly hotly debated in the LDS church. Many Mormons believe in it as I have known many Mormons who have studied Quantum Mechanics and Physics.
Well, the Mormon faith sure DOES propose a lot (and I do mean A LOT) of other REALLY fucked up things. I mean, it isn't even REMOTELY sane.
BTW, who would be dumb enough to deny God face to face anyway?