I'm not exactly too sure of the limits of religious debate on this forum, but I'll try to keep it in context to the original OPs question.
Quote: "To religious people it's not "make-believe", however baffling that might be."
Yes sensible people are aware of that abnormality.
Although it does not make religious belief any more real anyway.
People once thought slavery was also a good thing. But since science discovered that different ethnic groups actually have the same size brain (even if they speak another language, or live in the jungle or not)
Quite obviously the 'religious' population of society is backward and thankfully separated from state laws. Gone are the days where religion was taught in schools as the norm. It is now fully understood as a personal feeling of a belief without any fact (strangely AT ALL, I mean ZERO facts!)
Quote: "raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society."
Mind boggling.
I would have to state that raising a child religiously IS brain washing. And without a doubt the No.1 reason of all the scientific; atheist; and even society in general as the most IRRATIONAL fit into society.
It concerns me greatly if some feel that learning religion may actually help others to think rationally when its clear that its the opposite effect.
It is NOT rational to fear God, nor is it rational to fear (or love!) the flying spaghetti monster in space.
To make choices in life (ie wasting life going to church or a mosque or living by the Bible or Holly Qur'an) is the utmost of irrationality. Based on zero understanding of any of our modern world.
I mean seriously. Some people actually think the world is 6,000 years old!? And others think we are made from clay (the Islam faith fools)
Of the religious minded people who have finally accepted evolution and Darwinism, STILL they place trust in a MAKE BELIEVE fairy tale.
The ONLY hope I see, is for children to NOT be taught this religious ridiculous rubbish by 'state' or PARENT.
There should be a law against parents abusing their young children like this. Teachings of fear of the all powerful spaghetti monster (oh I mean that liar Jesus).
EVEN pastors state that the Bible needs to be interpreted properly. Therefore, NEVER just give a child a Bible, or they might decide to stone others to death, since the Bible states this is ok to do!
"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him." Leviticus 24:16
Absolute lunacy.
Keep your children clear of this dangerous belief.
Note: I couldn't possibly respond to ALL your false points above, except to say ALL RELIGION IS WRONG, if you like it or not!
Note: I don't expect you to accept any of the facts I discussed. Since having a religious belief makes you extremely defensive to REASON.
Firstly, "raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society."
What I mean is a child raised religiously won't inevitably share the beliefs of their parents, nor will they inevitably be rendered incapable of rational thought, nor will they necessarily be at odds with the rest of society.
Comparing slavery with religion is bizarre. Religion is an aspect of every society, a HUMAN aspect. As you say, many people have an idiopathic sense of and perhaps need of something beyond, and that is what makes them attach to various religions. Therefore religion fits into society, it's often an unavoidable aspect of it because even if you took away all the religious doctrine in the world, that void would be filled again by new doctrine. Science cannot disprove religion once and for all because most religions have at the fundamental level a belief in something that is beyond our capabilities to prove or disprove. Justification for slavery, on the other hand, based on genetic arguments of intellectual inferiority, is quite easily disproven. The greater justification for the abolishment of slavery in America was, at its heart, a moral and ethical issue - something ultimately agreed on by Christians and non-Christians.
I wouldn't raise my child religiously. I'm not keen on other children being raised religiously either; in fact I entirely see where the OP and you are coming from. I believe a child should have the freedom to develop intellectually and socially, but also spiritually, without having a religion imposed upon them. HOWEVER my main contention is with a law forcing parents to adopt this stance. I don't believe the consequences of a religious upbringing nor our disagreements with it are severe enough to warrant laws against it.
Quote: "raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society."
I am seriously going to quote that to others as the absolute limit of ignorance and foolishness that a religious minded person can obtain.
It's without a doubt one of the funniest quotes I've ever heard in my life. The rest of these idiotic quotes can be found in the Bible and Qur'an. ALL very funny.
You stated religion is a 'human aspect'
Its not
On the contrary 'humanists' are usually the atheists.
No child is religious.
It is taught (instructed) to them from others who have had it pushed upon them.
IF you remove the religious instructor, the child will grow up without Jesus (ie no Christianity) without Allah (hmm, they may have to be killed) and without any other known religion.
They may however look to the stars and wonder at its vastness. Many tend to say such things as lightning must be magical or spiritual. But after many thousands of years of science discoveries we have found that things that don't have an easy answer do not automatically constitute an existence of a god. Thankfully SCIENCE has already helped with the weather magic!
I'm of the belief that a certain proportion of the population are predisposed to this kind of 'magical' thinking, and that even in the absence of a coherent organised religion, they'd develop their own supernatural explanations despite science. Many people convert to one religion or another without having been raised religiously, around religion, or had religion forced upon them. They gravitate towards it because it provides something that science does not. They may look to the stars and think 'I know that is gravity-bound plasma and yet I KNOW there is something more than that'.
If science was satisfactory for everybody, the majority of my friends who are religious, have had a full education and were raised without religion wouldn't now follow a religion.
I'm saying that predisposed way of thinking with clear rational (modern) learning, allow people to understand that the unknown does not validate a belief (even a new belief) in an existence of a god.
This is where 'modern' teaching techniques can help children to continue with science (ie finding another planet that could sustain life) even if it is unknown or seemingly beyond belief (of which the planet example presently is not beyond belief)
Hundreds (really even a thousand) years ago, this type of teaching was just not allowed. If something couldn't be explained then usually it was given the god theory. These days science has moved on. Generally we accept unknowns as things we haven't found all the facts for yet, and that is all.
Regarding some intellectuals (obviously not stupid, but yes foolish) who continue with this old fashioned TAUGHT concept of an existence of a spaghetti monster or toaster flying through space (damn it I mean Jesus and god, I always mix that up!) These people will inevitably die off (ideally they should open their minds more, but mostly unlikely) and understand that children and future children are looking further and further into space, the beginnings of the universe, atoms and everything else that is scientific above ALL (including old fashioned religious beliefs).
Excuse the pun, but thank god for science!
Here's another quote I picked up on the Internet (it was mentioned in a forum like this one and I asked the post author if I could quote it and he said yes.
"Religions are our fantasy when reality is too complex to understand. Simple people like simple answers. How did the universe begin ? Simple – God magically made it. Complex – in the Science of cosmology you can learn about how the universe exists and what we have observed about it's beginnings.
The simple answer takes 2 seconds. The complex answer takes 10-15 years of dedicated study and even then, you still won't have all the answers you were looking for, but you will have facts, evidence, observation, models that have predictive capabilities, truth and reality. God & Faith are never answers to anything. They are when you want to give up and let your mind enjoy the simple, untruthful fantasy of knowing nothing at all."
Yes, but I'm saying that it isn't always as simple as 'I don't know this - therefore God'.
"Simple people like simple answers".
Why are religious people religious? Simple - because they haven't been taught science or they had religion bashed into them. Complex - because some people have an idiopathic sense, even conviction, that there is something beyond science, logic, rationality, beyond what is straight-forward, beyond what is provable or disprovable. To some people it simply IS.
I'll quote Gandhi,
"There is an indefinable mysterious Power that pervades everything. I feel it, though I do not see it. It is this unseen Power which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof, because it is so unlike all that I perceive through my senses. It transcends the senses. But it is possible to reason out the existence of God to a limited extent.
I do dimly perceive that whilst everything around me is ever changing, ever-dying, there is underlying all that change a Living Power that is changeless, that holds all together, that creates, dissolves, and re-creates. That informing Power or Spirit is God. And since nothing else I see merely through the senses can or will persist, He alone is."
IIN to think that parents raising their children religiously should...
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I'm not exactly too sure of the limits of religious debate on this forum, but I'll try to keep it in context to the original OPs question.
Quote: "To religious people it's not "make-believe", however baffling that might be."
Yes sensible people are aware of that abnormality.
Although it does not make religious belief any more real anyway.
People once thought slavery was also a good thing. But since science discovered that different ethnic groups actually have the same size brain (even if they speak another language, or live in the jungle or not)
Quite obviously the 'religious' population of society is backward and thankfully separated from state laws. Gone are the days where religion was taught in schools as the norm. It is now fully understood as a personal feeling of a belief without any fact (strangely AT ALL, I mean ZERO facts!)
Quote: "raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society."
Mind boggling.
I would have to state that raising a child religiously IS brain washing. And without a doubt the No.1 reason of all the scientific; atheist; and even society in general as the most IRRATIONAL fit into society.
It concerns me greatly if some feel that learning religion may actually help others to think rationally when its clear that its the opposite effect.
It is NOT rational to fear God, nor is it rational to fear (or love!) the flying spaghetti monster in space.
To make choices in life (ie wasting life going to church or a mosque or living by the Bible or Holly Qur'an) is the utmost of irrationality. Based on zero understanding of any of our modern world.
I mean seriously. Some people actually think the world is 6,000 years old!? And others think we are made from clay (the Islam faith fools)
Of the religious minded people who have finally accepted evolution and Darwinism, STILL they place trust in a MAKE BELIEVE fairy tale.
The ONLY hope I see, is for children to NOT be taught this religious ridiculous rubbish by 'state' or PARENT.
There should be a law against parents abusing their young children like this. Teachings of fear of the all powerful spaghetti monster (oh I mean that liar Jesus).
EVEN pastors state that the Bible needs to be interpreted properly. Therefore, NEVER just give a child a Bible, or they might decide to stone others to death, since the Bible states this is ok to do!
"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him." Leviticus 24:16
Absolute lunacy.
Keep your children clear of this dangerous belief.
Note: I couldn't possibly respond to ALL your false points above, except to say ALL RELIGION IS WRONG, if you like it or not!
Note: I don't expect you to accept any of the facts I discussed. Since having a religious belief makes you extremely defensive to REASON.
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Velancious
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disthing
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Agreed, one thing that caught my attention that isn't brought up often is how the pastors even insist the Bible be taken literally.
Even if it was not meant to be somehow taken literally, what would it EVEN MEAN? It's just clearly bullshit.
Note: I'm not religious.
Firstly, "raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society."
What I mean is a child raised religiously won't inevitably share the beliefs of their parents, nor will they inevitably be rendered incapable of rational thought, nor will they necessarily be at odds with the rest of society.
Comparing slavery with religion is bizarre. Religion is an aspect of every society, a HUMAN aspect. As you say, many people have an idiopathic sense of and perhaps need of something beyond, and that is what makes them attach to various religions. Therefore religion fits into society, it's often an unavoidable aspect of it because even if you took away all the religious doctrine in the world, that void would be filled again by new doctrine. Science cannot disprove religion once and for all because most religions have at the fundamental level a belief in something that is beyond our capabilities to prove or disprove. Justification for slavery, on the other hand, based on genetic arguments of intellectual inferiority, is quite easily disproven. The greater justification for the abolishment of slavery in America was, at its heart, a moral and ethical issue - something ultimately agreed on by Christians and non-Christians.
I wouldn't raise my child religiously. I'm not keen on other children being raised religiously either; in fact I entirely see where the OP and you are coming from. I believe a child should have the freedom to develop intellectually and socially, but also spiritually, without having a religion imposed upon them. HOWEVER my main contention is with a law forcing parents to adopt this stance. I don't believe the consequences of a religious upbringing nor our disagreements with it are severe enough to warrant laws against it.
Quote: "raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society."
I am seriously going to quote that to others as the absolute limit of ignorance and foolishness that a religious minded person can obtain.
It's without a doubt one of the funniest quotes I've ever heard in my life. The rest of these idiotic quotes can be found in the Bible and Qur'an. ALL very funny.
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disthing
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As I say, I'm not religious.
You are, however, extremely judgemental.
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You stated religion is a 'human aspect'
Its not
On the contrary 'humanists' are usually the atheists.
No child is religious.
It is taught (instructed) to them from others who have had it pushed upon them.
IF you remove the religious instructor, the child will grow up without Jesus (ie no Christianity) without Allah (hmm, they may have to be killed) and without any other known religion.
They may however look to the stars and wonder at its vastness. Many tend to say such things as lightning must be magical or spiritual. But after many thousands of years of science discoveries we have found that things that don't have an easy answer do not automatically constitute an existence of a god. Thankfully SCIENCE has already helped with the weather magic!
--
disthing
11 years ago
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I disagree.
I'm of the belief that a certain proportion of the population are predisposed to this kind of 'magical' thinking, and that even in the absence of a coherent organised religion, they'd develop their own supernatural explanations despite science. Many people convert to one religion or another without having been raised religiously, around religion, or had religion forced upon them. They gravitate towards it because it provides something that science does not. They may look to the stars and think 'I know that is gravity-bound plasma and yet I KNOW there is something more than that'.
If science was satisfactory for everybody, the majority of my friends who are religious, have had a full education and were raised without religion wouldn't now follow a religion.
--
Dad
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I'm saying that predisposed way of thinking with clear rational (modern) learning, allow people to understand that the unknown does not validate a belief (even a new belief) in an existence of a god.
This is where 'modern' teaching techniques can help children to continue with science (ie finding another planet that could sustain life) even if it is unknown or seemingly beyond belief (of which the planet example presently is not beyond belief)
Hundreds (really even a thousand) years ago, this type of teaching was just not allowed. If something couldn't be explained then usually it was given the god theory. These days science has moved on. Generally we accept unknowns as things we haven't found all the facts for yet, and that is all.
Regarding some intellectuals (obviously not stupid, but yes foolish) who continue with this old fashioned TAUGHT concept of an existence of a spaghetti monster or toaster flying through space (damn it I mean Jesus and god, I always mix that up!) These people will inevitably die off (ideally they should open their minds more, but mostly unlikely) and understand that children and future children are looking further and further into space, the beginnings of the universe, atoms and everything else that is scientific above ALL (including old fashioned religious beliefs).
Excuse the pun, but thank god for science!
Here's another quote I picked up on the Internet (it was mentioned in a forum like this one and I asked the post author if I could quote it and he said yes.
"Religions are our fantasy when reality is too complex to understand. Simple people like simple answers. How did the universe begin ? Simple – God magically made it. Complex – in the Science of cosmology you can learn about how the universe exists and what we have observed about it's beginnings.
The simple answer takes 2 seconds. The complex answer takes 10-15 years of dedicated study and even then, you still won't have all the answers you were looking for, but you will have facts, evidence, observation, models that have predictive capabilities, truth and reality. God & Faith are never answers to anything. They are when you want to give up and let your mind enjoy the simple, untruthful fantasy of knowing nothing at all."
--
disthing
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Yes, but I'm saying that it isn't always as simple as 'I don't know this - therefore God'.
"Simple people like simple answers".
Why are religious people religious? Simple - because they haven't been taught science or they had religion bashed into them. Complex - because some people have an idiopathic sense, even conviction, that there is something beyond science, logic, rationality, beyond what is straight-forward, beyond what is provable or disprovable. To some people it simply IS.
I'll quote Gandhi,
"There is an indefinable mysterious Power that pervades everything. I feel it, though I do not see it. It is this unseen Power which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof, because it is so unlike all that I perceive through my senses. It transcends the senses. But it is possible to reason out the existence of God to a limited extent.
I do dimly perceive that whilst everything around me is ever changing, ever-dying, there is underlying all that change a Living Power that is changeless, that holds all together, that creates, dissolves, and re-creates. That informing Power or Spirit is God. And since nothing else I see merely through the senses can or will persist, He alone is."