"...the vast majority of religious people and closed-minded parents who always believe their way is the right way and that if their children are going to be successful/happy in life they need to follow it."
So what you're saying is their way isn't the right way and that YOUR way is the right way and that the law should enforce YOUR way. Is that not being guilty of the same close-mindedness you accuse religious parents of having?
No, because religious belief in supernaturals is just make believe. This is not a choice, or belief in one way or another.
Its about fact Vs fiction.
There is absolutely ZERO evidence of any all powerful deity.
Whereas laws and communities coming together to intelligently decide on what's best for everyone in their present society is based on FACT and REASON.
Fact - To religious people it's not "make-believe", however baffling that might be.
Fact - raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society.
Fact - raising a child religiously does not inevitably subvert or deviate from "what's best for everyone in their present society". If a child is happy and fulfilled within a family unit that is overtly religious, threatening to break that family unit up because the child is practicing the religion their parents taught them seems to me a brutal and idiotic, fascist way of imposing your beliefs upon someone without considering the potential negative ramifications - isn't 'imposing your beliefs upon someone' exactly the 'problem' you think a law would remedy?
Fiction - what's best for one person is best for every person.
Fiction - the more the government control every inch of our lives the better our society we'll be.
Fiction - this law proposed by the OP would be entirely enforceable and would obviously do more good than harm.
I'm not exactly too sure of the limits of religious debate on this forum, but I'll try to keep it in context to the original OPs question.
Quote: "To religious people it's not "make-believe", however baffling that might be."
Yes sensible people are aware of that abnormality.
Although it does not make religious belief any more real anyway.
People once thought slavery was also a good thing. But since science discovered that different ethnic groups actually have the same size brain (even if they speak another language, or live in the jungle or not)
Quite obviously the 'religious' population of society is backward and thankfully separated from state laws. Gone are the days where religion was taught in schools as the norm. It is now fully understood as a personal feeling of a belief without any fact (strangely AT ALL, I mean ZERO facts!)
Quote: "raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society."
Mind boggling.
I would have to state that raising a child religiously IS brain washing. And without a doubt the No.1 reason of all the scientific; atheist; and even society in general as the most IRRATIONAL fit into society.
It concerns me greatly if some feel that learning religion may actually help others to think rationally when its clear that its the opposite effect.
It is NOT rational to fear God, nor is it rational to fear (or love!) the flying spaghetti monster in space.
To make choices in life (ie wasting life going to church or a mosque or living by the Bible or Holly Qur'an) is the utmost of irrationality. Based on zero understanding of any of our modern world.
I mean seriously. Some people actually think the world is 6,000 years old!? And others think we are made from clay (the Islam faith fools)
Of the religious minded people who have finally accepted evolution and Darwinism, STILL they place trust in a MAKE BELIEVE fairy tale.
The ONLY hope I see, is for children to NOT be taught this religious ridiculous rubbish by 'state' or PARENT.
There should be a law against parents abusing their young children like this. Teachings of fear of the all powerful spaghetti monster (oh I mean that liar Jesus).
EVEN pastors state that the Bible needs to be interpreted properly. Therefore, NEVER just give a child a Bible, or they might decide to stone others to death, since the Bible states this is ok to do!
"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him." Leviticus 24:16
Absolute lunacy.
Keep your children clear of this dangerous belief.
Note: I couldn't possibly respond to ALL your false points above, except to say ALL RELIGION IS WRONG, if you like it or not!
Note: I don't expect you to accept any of the facts I discussed. Since having a religious belief makes you extremely defensive to REASON.
Firstly, "raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society."
What I mean is a child raised religiously won't inevitably share the beliefs of their parents, nor will they inevitably be rendered incapable of rational thought, nor will they necessarily be at odds with the rest of society.
Comparing slavery with religion is bizarre. Religion is an aspect of every society, a HUMAN aspect. As you say, many people have an idiopathic sense of and perhaps need of something beyond, and that is what makes them attach to various religions. Therefore religion fits into society, it's often an unavoidable aspect of it because even if you took away all the religious doctrine in the world, that void would be filled again by new doctrine. Science cannot disprove religion once and for all because most religions have at the fundamental level a belief in something that is beyond our capabilities to prove or disprove. Justification for slavery, on the other hand, based on genetic arguments of intellectual inferiority, is quite easily disproven. The greater justification for the abolishment of slavery in America was, at its heart, a moral and ethical issue - something ultimately agreed on by Christians and non-Christians.
I wouldn't raise my child religiously. I'm not keen on other children being raised religiously either; in fact I entirely see where the OP and you are coming from. I believe a child should have the freedom to develop intellectually and socially, but also spiritually, without having a religion imposed upon them. HOWEVER my main contention is with a law forcing parents to adopt this stance. I don't believe the consequences of a religious upbringing nor our disagreements with it are severe enough to warrant laws against it.
Quote: "raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society."
I am seriously going to quote that to others as the absolute limit of ignorance and foolishness that a religious minded person can obtain.
It's without a doubt one of the funniest quotes I've ever heard in my life. The rest of these idiotic quotes can be found in the Bible and Qur'an. ALL very funny.
You stated religion is a 'human aspect'
Its not
On the contrary 'humanists' are usually the atheists.
No child is religious.
It is taught (instructed) to them from others who have had it pushed upon them.
IF you remove the religious instructor, the child will grow up without Jesus (ie no Christianity) without Allah (hmm, they may have to be killed) and without any other known religion.
They may however look to the stars and wonder at its vastness. Many tend to say such things as lightning must be magical or spiritual. But after many thousands of years of science discoveries we have found that things that don't have an easy answer do not automatically constitute an existence of a god. Thankfully SCIENCE has already helped with the weather magic!
That is incorrect, I believe people should be open to different ways for everyone. I have my own way that works for me of course but I wouldn't enforce my atheism on my children (if I have any). Everyone has different things that work for them, while the parents way may be right for them to be more happy/successful it doesn't mean it'll be right for their children.
Raising someone religiously isn't inherently done with force. A kid can be quite willing to accompany his or her parents to a mosque, church, synagogue or whatever, and be quite excited about religious festivals, and be eager to know about the stories and background. Not everybody has religion beaten into them.
"while the parents way may be right for them to be more happy/successful it doesn't mean it'll be right for their children", but it doesn't mean it'll be wrong either. What if a child were happier, more successful, more content because they've been raised that way?
I'm not religious and I wasn't brought up in a religious household. But I'm not so cocky that I think my way of being brought was the best way, the only way that's right, the way the government should force people to be brought up, FORCE people with laws and the threat of violence / detention (prison).
How would that even be practically enforced anyway? Through surveillance? Is that kid wearing a kippah?! Is that child attending church?! Is that child praying to Allah?! Is that family CELEBRATING CHRISTMAS?! Quick, call social services!
Any child having anything "beaten" into them is a victim of abuse, whether it be religion, homophobia, racism or indeed atheism, acceptance of homosexuality or a belief in racial equality. No child should be beaten into thinking a certain way.
A child who is in no danger, who is not being physically harmed, who is being fed and schooled, who is being clothed and who has shelter is a child with greater luck than millions of other children on this planet.
Laws are a contract forced upon everyone from birth, and should therefore be considered very carefully - they are not some MAGICAL SOLUTION to shape society.
A society forcing parents to cease raising their children religiously is actually quite similar to a parent forcing their child to be religious. It's a game of who has the bigger stick - either way, someone is getting whacked. That is not the wonderful ticket to "peace and sharing" and "understanding other cultures" as the OP implies.
Secular education that teaches morality and ethics outside of religion, that teaches rational and analytical approaches to problems, that teaches the fundamental shared values of society, THAT is the wonderful ticket. THAT is the reason many kids (INCLUDING THE OP) who are raised in a religious household see beyond their parents' belief system and are therefore able to decide it's not for them.
Society laws are worked out by many individuals sitting down together intelligently discussing the best outcomes for certain situations based on our present society. Note: This is not magic Lol
What we don't do, is take on a 2000 year old book (or religious belief) and pick one of the not so morally good belief stories. Note: This is similar to magic Lol.
Also, to state that its not damaging for a child because like the OP, as an adult, he can then question their own upbringing.
Children ARE forced to church. I'm shocked you weren't aware of this.
They cannot stay home by themselves, for hours on end, including on special occasions like Xmas and Easter days.
They are formerly told by parents/pastors and all the church people that they MUST love 'Jesus' more than anyone (even more than their own parents) else they are going to hell.
Do you honestly believe a child is given a choice?
And to the ramifications of this bad parenting?
A child who is likely very scared (this is the Christian faith) and has issues of going against everyone they knew when growing up! Some may stay on just to be safe!! THAT'S not a good upbringing in my view!
Religious parents imposing their unfounded beliefs onto their own children have very little respect for their own children, anyway I suppose their life is in gods hands and not theirs, so send them on camp with that wide eyed pastor who seems to like little kids!
The whole idea of religion and children just does NOT mix.
Yes I am aware some children are forced. I never denied this. But you must also accept some children aren't forced and choose to share and be involved with their parents' religion.
Let's look at the idea of a law again shall we.
What of those parents who harbour racist sentiments? Who support National Socialism? Or support eugenics? Or support sexual inequality? Or support any view that is perceived to be abnormal? If they encourage or force their child to adopt their perspective, should this be illegal and warrant some Government intervention and punishment too? How would you discover these parents? What would be an appropriate punishment?
It's easy to chase after religious people. There is typically a public observation of their beliefs; church, mosque, synagogue etc. If you made children's attendance of these illegal, do you not think they'd just have church/mosque/synagogues on a small scale at home? Private worshipping? This would push the entire thing underground and in fact result in a more oppressive upbringing where a child is more likely to be segregated from society.
IIN to think that parents raising their children religiously should...
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"...the vast majority of religious people and closed-minded parents who always believe their way is the right way and that if their children are going to be successful/happy in life they need to follow it."
So what you're saying is their way isn't the right way and that YOUR way is the right way and that the law should enforce YOUR way. Is that not being guilty of the same close-mindedness you accuse religious parents of having?
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No, because religious belief in supernaturals is just make believe. This is not a choice, or belief in one way or another.
Its about fact Vs fiction.
There is absolutely ZERO evidence of any all powerful deity.
Whereas laws and communities coming together to intelligently decide on what's best for everyone in their present society is based on FACT and REASON.
--
disthing
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Fact vs. Fiction.
Fact - To religious people it's not "make-believe", however baffling that might be.
Fact - raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society.
Fact - raising a child religiously does not inevitably subvert or deviate from "what's best for everyone in their present society". If a child is happy and fulfilled within a family unit that is overtly religious, threatening to break that family unit up because the child is practicing the religion their parents taught them seems to me a brutal and idiotic, fascist way of imposing your beliefs upon someone without considering the potential negative ramifications - isn't 'imposing your beliefs upon someone' exactly the 'problem' you think a law would remedy?
Fiction - what's best for one person is best for every person.
Fiction - the more the government control every inch of our lives the better our society we'll be.
Fiction - this law proposed by the OP would be entirely enforceable and would obviously do more good than harm.
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I'm not exactly too sure of the limits of religious debate on this forum, but I'll try to keep it in context to the original OPs question.
Quote: "To religious people it's not "make-believe", however baffling that might be."
Yes sensible people are aware of that abnormality.
Although it does not make religious belief any more real anyway.
People once thought slavery was also a good thing. But since science discovered that different ethnic groups actually have the same size brain (even if they speak another language, or live in the jungle or not)
Quite obviously the 'religious' population of society is backward and thankfully separated from state laws. Gone are the days where religion was taught in schools as the norm. It is now fully understood as a personal feeling of a belief without any fact (strangely AT ALL, I mean ZERO facts!)
Quote: "raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society."
Mind boggling.
I would have to state that raising a child religiously IS brain washing. And without a doubt the No.1 reason of all the scientific; atheist; and even society in general as the most IRRATIONAL fit into society.
It concerns me greatly if some feel that learning religion may actually help others to think rationally when its clear that its the opposite effect.
It is NOT rational to fear God, nor is it rational to fear (or love!) the flying spaghetti monster in space.
To make choices in life (ie wasting life going to church or a mosque or living by the Bible or Holly Qur'an) is the utmost of irrationality. Based on zero understanding of any of our modern world.
I mean seriously. Some people actually think the world is 6,000 years old!? And others think we are made from clay (the Islam faith fools)
Of the religious minded people who have finally accepted evolution and Darwinism, STILL they place trust in a MAKE BELIEVE fairy tale.
The ONLY hope I see, is for children to NOT be taught this religious ridiculous rubbish by 'state' or PARENT.
There should be a law against parents abusing their young children like this. Teachings of fear of the all powerful spaghetti monster (oh I mean that liar Jesus).
EVEN pastors state that the Bible needs to be interpreted properly. Therefore, NEVER just give a child a Bible, or they might decide to stone others to death, since the Bible states this is ok to do!
"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him." Leviticus 24:16
Absolute lunacy.
Keep your children clear of this dangerous belief.
Note: I couldn't possibly respond to ALL your false points above, except to say ALL RELIGION IS WRONG, if you like it or not!
Note: I don't expect you to accept any of the facts I discussed. Since having a religious belief makes you extremely defensive to REASON.
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disthing
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Agreed, one thing that caught my attention that isn't brought up often is how the pastors even insist the Bible be taken literally.
Even if it was not meant to be somehow taken literally, what would it EVEN MEAN? It's just clearly bullshit.
Note: I'm not religious.
Firstly, "raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society."
What I mean is a child raised religiously won't inevitably share the beliefs of their parents, nor will they inevitably be rendered incapable of rational thought, nor will they necessarily be at odds with the rest of society.
Comparing slavery with religion is bizarre. Religion is an aspect of every society, a HUMAN aspect. As you say, many people have an idiopathic sense of and perhaps need of something beyond, and that is what makes them attach to various religions. Therefore religion fits into society, it's often an unavoidable aspect of it because even if you took away all the religious doctrine in the world, that void would be filled again by new doctrine. Science cannot disprove religion once and for all because most religions have at the fundamental level a belief in something that is beyond our capabilities to prove or disprove. Justification for slavery, on the other hand, based on genetic arguments of intellectual inferiority, is quite easily disproven. The greater justification for the abolishment of slavery in America was, at its heart, a moral and ethical issue - something ultimately agreed on by Christians and non-Christians.
I wouldn't raise my child religiously. I'm not keen on other children being raised religiously either; in fact I entirely see where the OP and you are coming from. I believe a child should have the freedom to develop intellectually and socially, but also spiritually, without having a religion imposed upon them. HOWEVER my main contention is with a law forcing parents to adopt this stance. I don't believe the consequences of a religious upbringing nor our disagreements with it are severe enough to warrant laws against it.
Quote: "raising a child religiously does not inevitably brainwash them, destroy their ability to think rationally or fit in with society."
I am seriously going to quote that to others as the absolute limit of ignorance and foolishness that a religious minded person can obtain.
It's without a doubt one of the funniest quotes I've ever heard in my life. The rest of these idiotic quotes can be found in the Bible and Qur'an. ALL very funny.
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As I say, I'm not religious.
You are, however, extremely judgemental.
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You stated religion is a 'human aspect'
Its not
On the contrary 'humanists' are usually the atheists.
No child is religious.
It is taught (instructed) to them from others who have had it pushed upon them.
IF you remove the religious instructor, the child will grow up without Jesus (ie no Christianity) without Allah (hmm, they may have to be killed) and without any other known religion.
They may however look to the stars and wonder at its vastness. Many tend to say such things as lightning must be magical or spiritual. But after many thousands of years of science discoveries we have found that things that don't have an easy answer do not automatically constitute an existence of a god. Thankfully SCIENCE has already helped with the weather magic!
That is incorrect, I believe people should be open to different ways for everyone. I have my own way that works for me of course but I wouldn't enforce my atheism on my children (if I have any). Everyone has different things that work for them, while the parents way may be right for them to be more happy/successful it doesn't mean it'll be right for their children.
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disthing
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Raising someone religiously isn't inherently done with force. A kid can be quite willing to accompany his or her parents to a mosque, church, synagogue or whatever, and be quite excited about religious festivals, and be eager to know about the stories and background. Not everybody has religion beaten into them.
"while the parents way may be right for them to be more happy/successful it doesn't mean it'll be right for their children", but it doesn't mean it'll be wrong either. What if a child were happier, more successful, more content because they've been raised that way?
I'm not religious and I wasn't brought up in a religious household. But I'm not so cocky that I think my way of being brought was the best way, the only way that's right, the way the government should force people to be brought up, FORCE people with laws and the threat of violence / detention (prison).
How would that even be practically enforced anyway? Through surveillance? Is that kid wearing a kippah?! Is that child attending church?! Is that child praying to Allah?! Is that family CELEBRATING CHRISTMAS?! Quick, call social services!
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I believe they need to limit the ages and also make it illegal IF the child is being forced/having it beaten into them.
This is unacceptable as it does violate the first amendment. Children lose their freedom of choice. Limits need to be made.
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Any child having anything "beaten" into them is a victim of abuse, whether it be religion, homophobia, racism or indeed atheism, acceptance of homosexuality or a belief in racial equality. No child should be beaten into thinking a certain way.
A child who is in no danger, who is not being physically harmed, who is being fed and schooled, who is being clothed and who has shelter is a child with greater luck than millions of other children on this planet.
Laws are a contract forced upon everyone from birth, and should therefore be considered very carefully - they are not some MAGICAL SOLUTION to shape society.
A society forcing parents to cease raising their children religiously is actually quite similar to a parent forcing their child to be religious. It's a game of who has the bigger stick - either way, someone is getting whacked. That is not the wonderful ticket to "peace and sharing" and "understanding other cultures" as the OP implies.
Secular education that teaches morality and ethics outside of religion, that teaches rational and analytical approaches to problems, that teaches the fundamental shared values of society, THAT is the wonderful ticket. THAT is the reason many kids (INCLUDING THE OP) who are raised in a religious household see beyond their parents' belief system and are therefore able to decide it's not for them.
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Velancious
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That's not exactly correct.
Society laws are worked out by many individuals sitting down together intelligently discussing the best outcomes for certain situations based on our present society. Note: This is not magic Lol
What we don't do, is take on a 2000 year old book (or religious belief) and pick one of the not so morally good belief stories. Note: This is similar to magic Lol.
Also, to state that its not damaging for a child because like the OP, as an adult, he can then question their own upbringing.
Children ARE forced to church. I'm shocked you weren't aware of this.
They cannot stay home by themselves, for hours on end, including on special occasions like Xmas and Easter days.
They are formerly told by parents/pastors and all the church people that they MUST love 'Jesus' more than anyone (even more than their own parents) else they are going to hell.
Do you honestly believe a child is given a choice?
And to the ramifications of this bad parenting?
A child who is likely very scared (this is the Christian faith) and has issues of going against everyone they knew when growing up! Some may stay on just to be safe!! THAT'S not a good upbringing in my view!
Religious parents imposing their unfounded beliefs onto their own children have very little respect for their own children, anyway I suppose their life is in gods hands and not theirs, so send them on camp with that wide eyed pastor who seems to like little kids!
The whole idea of religion and children just does NOT mix.
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Yes I am aware some children are forced. I never denied this. But you must also accept some children aren't forced and choose to share and be involved with their parents' religion.
Let's look at the idea of a law again shall we.
What of those parents who harbour racist sentiments? Who support National Socialism? Or support eugenics? Or support sexual inequality? Or support any view that is perceived to be abnormal? If they encourage or force their child to adopt their perspective, should this be illegal and warrant some Government intervention and punishment too? How would you discover these parents? What would be an appropriate punishment?
It's easy to chase after religious people. There is typically a public observation of their beliefs; church, mosque, synagogue etc. If you made children's attendance of these illegal, do you not think they'd just have church/mosque/synagogues on a small scale at home? Private worshipping? This would push the entire thing underground and in fact result in a more oppressive upbringing where a child is more likely to be segregated from society.
I see your point, but still this remains a conflicted issue. Rights of one of the other is violated either way.
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disthing
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I agree.