Your right to swing your arm end where my body starts. Do you agree with that?
Your right to possibly infect me with a serious virus (which causes a much higher hospitilation rate than most illnesses, has long term health effects for many who don't die (I'm personally living with long term health effects that have changed my life), and has the highest common death rate in almost 100 years; and which you may have no indications that you are spreading it... ends where the concentration of your breath with potential virus particles is high enough to likely infect someone, or where your body parts can leave infectious fluids.
For breathing: Without a mask - that's about 30 ft. With a good mask, its about 5 ft.
For hands, etc. Frequently use sanitizer and restrict hand contact.
It's really that simple.
Freedom comes with responsibilities (always has, and always will). You have the responsibility to not knowingly significantly harm another. Within that responsibility - be as free as you desire.
Odds of dying from covid and odds of dying in one year when averaged out by age are basically the same. An 86 year old has the same chance of dying from covid as dying within one year. Doesn't this suggest that across all age groups, only people close to death are dying from covid? Age actually has nothing to do with it and being extremely unhealthy does?
The mask argument is stupid, its depressing not seeing peoples faces but wearing a mask to walk into a store isn't a huge imposition.
Calling people selfish because they can't function in isolation is ssomething else. Some people's social lives are all they have. Going to a bar isn't the same thing as purposefully coughing in old people's faces. It's not healthy to expect everyone to lock themselves in their homes and not go out. Some people would rather die. But people arguing for more lockdowns don't actually give a crap about those people.
It isn't just about death. It's a lot more about just getting sick and having long term health effects.
The hospitals in the nation are almost out of critical care units due to Covid; and many other health issues are being pushed off because of Covid. When do those issues get addressed for people - and how does it impact them in the meantime.
I've had to dramatically change my life and can not currently work enough to pay my bills due to long term health effects. While I forsee a recovery. I have to work on things every day and it may be a year or two before I am ss robust as I was before Covid; if ever.
Three are lots of people with similar long term effects that have real impacts on their lives and and their ability to earn a living. Not all have the financial resources I have to be able to take 6-8 months out of my life to work on recovery without going significantly in debt.
I also think that you are misusing statistics; and that the Social Security Chart will change noticeably once they produce a chart for 2020-21 - ??? data.
Don't feel too bad about the misunderstanding of statistics. The reason why statistics "fail" so often is that most people do not understand the assumptions behind each statistical analysis and misapply them to most situations. It's a very common issue.
People of almost all ages above about 18-20 are dying at a higher rate this year than that 2017 chart due to Covid or issues that have not been normally dealt with due to Covid monopolizing our nations medical and other resources.
He's not misunderstood the statistics; you misunderstood his point. Nothing about what he said was inaccurate statistically. An increase in death is not what he's debating. He's saying the increase in deaths is small for this kind of reaction.
The only 2 arguments people have in this are "Lockdowns are necessary and work" vs. "Sacrifice the old to save the economy." It's interesting how this divides down party lines when it has nothing to do with other political arguments.
We're obviously in an engineered situation, with most of the world basically in lock-step with their inept and stupid reactions to this. I've been paying really close attention to this whole mess. The WHO conveniently took the part out of the definition of "pandemic" where it actually has to kill a significant number of people.
I was just saying, if .001% of 27 year olds die who get covid, and .001% of 27 year olds will be dead before their next birthday anyway, and this trend follows basically every age of person, maybe they're the same people.
I don't know anyone, including people in their 80s, who got covid and said it was anything worse than a bad cold.
Hospitals are always full, hospitals in my area in NY were never overloaded, the original point of the lockdown was 2 weeks to set up extra hospitals for covid patients, which were never used and taken apart again. I've gone past a couple of hospitals in my area (I don't drive really, so its a pain) and none of them have lines out the door of people collapsing in the street like was supposedly happening in China at the beginning of all this. That was the situation they sold us when they started the lockdown. It never happened, anywhere.
Completely destroying every open independent buisiness is causing people to go into debt.
I don't misunderstand statistics. Did polio have 24/7 coverage like this does? Polio was a lot scarier than covid. People back in the 1400s were stupid as fuck, and they knew the plague existed without constant propaganda reminding them. Most people would have no clue covid existed if it wasn't being blasted on repeat for the last 10 months.
Also if you stop watching news media fear porn, and just look at the publically posted numbers, california has way more cases under lockdown than florida does where nobody gives a fuck.
That social security chart is from 2016. That's not supposed to reflect covid, it's the average odds a person has of dying before their next birthday. Throughout the entire thing, the odds of dying are about the same as the CDC death rates from covid by age. People who only have a year to live at any age are most likely not very healthy. To me that similarity suggests only the most extremely unhealthy people REGARDLESS OF AGE are the ones dying from "covid" (A covid death is a death from any cause within 28 days of a positive covid test) Keep in mind, as I've been saying since March, extremely unhealthy 90 year old people didn't get advanced life saving care if they got regular pneumonia before covid happened. Obesity is supposed to be a major contributing factor (which would also fall under extremely poor health) so why aren't we closing fast food places to save lives? Why are there used masks all over the street in my town but no biohazard drops for them like theyd have for used needles?
Anyway, considering covid is unlikely to kill most people, and the government doesn't intervene to prevent other major causes of death, I'd say the reaction is being purposely overblown for the purpose of advancing the political adgendas of the people behind it. I'm not some trump anti-mask dick out there yelling at store workers, but It's pretty troubling to me that the majority of people aren't concerned with the lasting effects of massive government intrusion into peoples lives over a manufactured panic.
I fully understand the impact to business owners. I own 4 small businesses - and every one has been affected by Covid. My latest estimate is that combining all 4 of them I will likely have a net profit of about $600 for 2020 (for the entire year). I don't get any salary from those businesses - I live off of the profits (minus 15% SS taxes which taken from it as I have to pay the employers and the employees combined share); which reduces $600 to $510. About $510 income is tough to live on for the year (and lets just say that we are living a very basic lifestyle right now).
The Pandemic Unemployment Assistance for the self employed is very ineffective at paying you anything: In retrospect; that was not even worth spending 2-3 days of my time doing the paperwork to file for it.
As for death rates: In recent years approximately 2.8 million people died in the USA from all causes (diseases/health issues, accidents, murders, suicides).
So far at least 300,000 additional people have died from Covid from about March to now. There's also about 100,000 higher than normal deaths for reasons that were not well defined - and are likely Covid related (I have heard that most of those are from before there was widespread testing capability for Covid).
So we have more than a 10% increase in the death rate this year(and perhaps approaching 15%) - and attributed to 1 specific disease.
You are correct that hospitals are usually mostly full. The question is for what? A lot of the normal hospital patient load is for elective or non urgent medical procedures that are being addressed in a timely manner. Those almost always have been deferred for much of 2020 - and expected well into 2021 if not 2022 because the hospitals are full of people who are actually sick enough to require urgent hospital treatment from Covid. My wife works in a hospital... She has seen the changes in the patients.
That's a big difference.
Now I'm not saying shut down businesses (and I do believe that some states have gone to far long term); but, if people would just wear masks, wash and sanitize things, and use common sense on not clustering and gathering in large close groups we could have cut the increased death rate about in half; and freed up the medical community to take care of at least the worst of those other issues that have been deferred (and how many deaths, lot jobs, and long term health effects will occur from not taking care of "non-urgent" issues in a timely manner).
We can disagree on what should be done. But you cannot claim the death rate charts from 2017 apply to 2020. Actual facts are facts.
Nor do I believe that you can claim that we should just ignore it. Its having a real health impact on many people (and not just the elderly and weak); and is delaying needed medical treatment for millions of others.
Well there you go, empty hospitals not treating cancer patients because of covid is a bad thing.
The whole problem with calculating the death numbers is they don't account for how many of the dead people were severely sick and dying anyway. Like I said, the deaths from covid seem to be about the same percentage in every age group as people who would have died anyway. Hospice patients are counted as covid deaths. Positive test and getting hit by a bus 25 days later is counted as a covid death.
As for "taking it seriously," I'm not sure what you mean. I wear a "face covering" if I go buy cigarettes and stand a little further back in line than I normally would. Other than that, you're basically saying respecting the severity of the virus will make it go away, like appeasing an angry god or something.
My only point is this situation is being used to serve political agendas. Very sick old people are put into hospice with regular pneumonia in normal times.
The mask is an idiotic line to draw and Im not even arguing how horrible that is, but when they give a bunch of rubbers to an african village with an AIDS problem they teach them how to use them, they don't just generically post "Wear a dick covering" everywhere and tell people bandanas are good enough.
That's the problem. I see everyone in my town wearing masks to the point of driving with them on or just walking alone on the street. The blame on some imaginary people who are all licking each others tonsils conveniently makes it everyone's fault for not following the guidelines instead of the obvious conclusion that the guidelines aren't working. You're saying I need to take it more seriously, when all I'm doing is following the dumb rules and not living in fear.
What older dude said is correct. I find it really weird that people can't wrap their minds around the idea that some people including myself live in a multi generational house hold.
Frankly I'm sic to death of hearing about how my chances of dieing from covid are 'minimal' when that isn't the point. I'm a full time frontline employee and live in caretaker for two grandparents, one who lost half her lung to childhood pnumonia and another who is a life long smoker. Why is it fair that I have to go home every night knowing I'm doing everything I can to protect them but others just can't be bothered to?
I would hate for another world war to happen anytime in the near future. Imagine how many people would just be blown up because they couldn't stand taking shelter and being inconvenienced for a year.
This is a "war" like the war on drugs or the war on terrorism. Look how well we're winning those.
You all keep saying this whole "other people cant be bothered to" nonsense. What should I be doing then? I wear a mask to go buy food or smokes or whatever, but I think this covid thing is a colossal psyop just the same.
What exactly would you consider a "victory" here? Zero cases? That's never going to happen. The "Vaccine" doesn't actually prevent you from getting sick so we all have to wear masks and distance. That's not a way to live forever. There's absolutely no goal anymore. Just rolling lockdowns forever. Are you comfortable living like this forever?
Personally a push to have all socialization done over the internet at the same time as all these social media websites are starting to heavily censor any kind of wrong think is scarier than the virus.
'If masks work, then why social distancing?
If social distancing works, then why wear masks?
If both of those work, then why a vaccine?
If all three of those work, then why can't I spend the holidays with my family.... but I can go Christmas shopping.. around hundreds of people.. for a family I can't be around.....?
Help.'
-Some guy on TikTok (Paraphrasing)
Exactly. Don't go to stores, only buy things on amazon. Once we get rid of this pesky "Independent buisiness" and "Being able to make money outside of the corporation" we can go back to normal. Oh, but wear masks and lockdown forever because none of this makes any sense outside of that being the actual gol.
If independent businesses are going to survive during this time they need to set up infastructure for online sales. They should have already been working on it because even without the virus in person retail was in decline.
Online sales for what? Bars and bowling alleys and roller rinks?
I dont work retail I do independent handyman work like fixing lights in places and bikes and getting arcade and bowling equipment working. Oh wait let me learn how to use a computer good so I can do all that stuff online.
Everything going online is the whole core of the problem you idiot. You think everybody makes money in retail stores? What are you, 12?
I don't believe in these restrictions
← View full post
Let me explain it this way:
Your right to swing your arm end where my body starts. Do you agree with that?
Your right to possibly infect me with a serious virus (which causes a much higher hospitilation rate than most illnesses, has long term health effects for many who don't die (I'm personally living with long term health effects that have changed my life), and has the highest common death rate in almost 100 years; and which you may have no indications that you are spreading it... ends where the concentration of your breath with potential virus particles is high enough to likely infect someone, or where your body parts can leave infectious fluids.
For breathing: Without a mask - that's about 30 ft. With a good mask, its about 5 ft.
For hands, etc. Frequently use sanitizer and restrict hand contact.
It's really that simple.
Freedom comes with responsibilities (always has, and always will). You have the responsibility to not knowingly significantly harm another. Within that responsibility - be as free as you desire.
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SmokeEverything
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iEatZombies_
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https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html
Odds of dying from covid and odds of dying in one year when averaged out by age are basically the same. An 86 year old has the same chance of dying from covid as dying within one year. Doesn't this suggest that across all age groups, only people close to death are dying from covid? Age actually has nothing to do with it and being extremely unhealthy does?
The mask argument is stupid, its depressing not seeing peoples faces but wearing a mask to walk into a store isn't a huge imposition.
Calling people selfish because they can't function in isolation is ssomething else. Some people's social lives are all they have. Going to a bar isn't the same thing as purposefully coughing in old people's faces. It's not healthy to expect everyone to lock themselves in their homes and not go out. Some people would rather die. But people arguing for more lockdowns don't actually give a crap about those people.
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bigbudchonga
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olderdude-xx
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Very well put, dude. I think people are quite unaware of the actual statistics.
It isn't just about death. It's a lot more about just getting sick and having long term health effects.
The hospitals in the nation are almost out of critical care units due to Covid; and many other health issues are being pushed off because of Covid. When do those issues get addressed for people - and how does it impact them in the meantime.
I've had to dramatically change my life and can not currently work enough to pay my bills due to long term health effects. While I forsee a recovery. I have to work on things every day and it may be a year or two before I am ss robust as I was before Covid; if ever.
Three are lots of people with similar long term effects that have real impacts on their lives and and their ability to earn a living. Not all have the financial resources I have to be able to take 6-8 months out of my life to work on recovery without going significantly in debt.
I also think that you are misusing statistics; and that the Social Security Chart will change noticeably once they produce a chart for 2020-21 - ??? data.
Don't feel too bad about the misunderstanding of statistics. The reason why statistics "fail" so often is that most people do not understand the assumptions behind each statistical analysis and misapply them to most situations. It's a very common issue.
People of almost all ages above about 18-20 are dying at a higher rate this year than that 2017 chart due to Covid or issues that have not been normally dealt with due to Covid monopolizing our nations medical and other resources.
Peace
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bigbudchonga
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SmokeEverything
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He's not misunderstood the statistics; you misunderstood his point. Nothing about what he said was inaccurate statistically. An increase in death is not what he's debating. He's saying the increase in deaths is small for this kind of reaction.
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SmokeEverything
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The only 2 arguments people have in this are "Lockdowns are necessary and work" vs. "Sacrifice the old to save the economy." It's interesting how this divides down party lines when it has nothing to do with other political arguments.
We're obviously in an engineered situation, with most of the world basically in lock-step with their inept and stupid reactions to this. I've been paying really close attention to this whole mess. The WHO conveniently took the part out of the definition of "pandemic" where it actually has to kill a significant number of people.
I was just saying, if .001% of 27 year olds die who get covid, and .001% of 27 year olds will be dead before their next birthday anyway, and this trend follows basically every age of person, maybe they're the same people.
I don't know anyone, including people in their 80s, who got covid and said it was anything worse than a bad cold.
Hospitals are always full, hospitals in my area in NY were never overloaded, the original point of the lockdown was 2 weeks to set up extra hospitals for covid patients, which were never used and taken apart again. I've gone past a couple of hospitals in my area (I don't drive really, so its a pain) and none of them have lines out the door of people collapsing in the street like was supposedly happening in China at the beginning of all this. That was the situation they sold us when they started the lockdown. It never happened, anywhere.
Completely destroying every open independent buisiness is causing people to go into debt.
I don't misunderstand statistics. Did polio have 24/7 coverage like this does? Polio was a lot scarier than covid. People back in the 1400s were stupid as fuck, and they knew the plague existed without constant propaganda reminding them. Most people would have no clue covid existed if it wasn't being blasted on repeat for the last 10 months.
Also if you stop watching news media fear porn, and just look at the publically posted numbers, california has way more cases under lockdown than florida does where nobody gives a fuck.
That social security chart is from 2016. That's not supposed to reflect covid, it's the average odds a person has of dying before their next birthday. Throughout the entire thing, the odds of dying are about the same as the CDC death rates from covid by age. People who only have a year to live at any age are most likely not very healthy. To me that similarity suggests only the most extremely unhealthy people REGARDLESS OF AGE are the ones dying from "covid" (A covid death is a death from any cause within 28 days of a positive covid test) Keep in mind, as I've been saying since March, extremely unhealthy 90 year old people didn't get advanced life saving care if they got regular pneumonia before covid happened. Obesity is supposed to be a major contributing factor (which would also fall under extremely poor health) so why aren't we closing fast food places to save lives? Why are there used masks all over the street in my town but no biohazard drops for them like theyd have for used needles?
Anyway, considering covid is unlikely to kill most people, and the government doesn't intervene to prevent other major causes of death, I'd say the reaction is being purposely overblown for the purpose of advancing the political adgendas of the people behind it. I'm not some trump anti-mask dick out there yelling at store workers, but It's pretty troubling to me that the majority of people aren't concerned with the lasting effects of massive government intrusion into peoples lives over a manufactured panic.
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I fully understand the impact to business owners. I own 4 small businesses - and every one has been affected by Covid. My latest estimate is that combining all 4 of them I will likely have a net profit of about $600 for 2020 (for the entire year). I don't get any salary from those businesses - I live off of the profits (minus 15% SS taxes which taken from it as I have to pay the employers and the employees combined share); which reduces $600 to $510. About $510 income is tough to live on for the year (and lets just say that we are living a very basic lifestyle right now).
The Pandemic Unemployment Assistance for the self employed is very ineffective at paying you anything: In retrospect; that was not even worth spending 2-3 days of my time doing the paperwork to file for it.
As for death rates: In recent years approximately 2.8 million people died in the USA from all causes (diseases/health issues, accidents, murders, suicides).
So far at least 300,000 additional people have died from Covid from about March to now. There's also about 100,000 higher than normal deaths for reasons that were not well defined - and are likely Covid related (I have heard that most of those are from before there was widespread testing capability for Covid).
So we have more than a 10% increase in the death rate this year(and perhaps approaching 15%) - and attributed to 1 specific disease.
You are correct that hospitals are usually mostly full. The question is for what? A lot of the normal hospital patient load is for elective or non urgent medical procedures that are being addressed in a timely manner. Those almost always have been deferred for much of 2020 - and expected well into 2021 if not 2022 because the hospitals are full of people who are actually sick enough to require urgent hospital treatment from Covid. My wife works in a hospital... She has seen the changes in the patients.
That's a big difference.
Now I'm not saying shut down businesses (and I do believe that some states have gone to far long term); but, if people would just wear masks, wash and sanitize things, and use common sense on not clustering and gathering in large close groups we could have cut the increased death rate about in half; and freed up the medical community to take care of at least the worst of those other issues that have been deferred (and how many deaths, lot jobs, and long term health effects will occur from not taking care of "non-urgent" issues in a timely manner).
We can disagree on what should be done. But you cannot claim the death rate charts from 2017 apply to 2020. Actual facts are facts.
Nor do I believe that you can claim that we should just ignore it. Its having a real health impact on many people (and not just the elderly and weak); and is delaying needed medical treatment for millions of others.
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SmokeEverything
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Wooliumthethird
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Well there you go, empty hospitals not treating cancer patients because of covid is a bad thing.
The whole problem with calculating the death numbers is they don't account for how many of the dead people were severely sick and dying anyway. Like I said, the deaths from covid seem to be about the same percentage in every age group as people who would have died anyway. Hospice patients are counted as covid deaths. Positive test and getting hit by a bus 25 days later is counted as a covid death.
As for "taking it seriously," I'm not sure what you mean. I wear a "face covering" if I go buy cigarettes and stand a little further back in line than I normally would. Other than that, you're basically saying respecting the severity of the virus will make it go away, like appeasing an angry god or something.
My only point is this situation is being used to serve political agendas. Very sick old people are put into hospice with regular pneumonia in normal times.
The mask is an idiotic line to draw and Im not even arguing how horrible that is, but when they give a bunch of rubbers to an african village with an AIDS problem they teach them how to use them, they don't just generically post "Wear a dick covering" everywhere and tell people bandanas are good enough.
That's the problem. I see everyone in my town wearing masks to the point of driving with them on or just walking alone on the street. The blame on some imaginary people who are all licking each others tonsils conveniently makes it everyone's fault for not following the guidelines instead of the obvious conclusion that the guidelines aren't working. You're saying I need to take it more seriously, when all I'm doing is following the dumb rules and not living in fear.
What older dude said is correct. I find it really weird that people can't wrap their minds around the idea that some people including myself live in a multi generational house hold.
Frankly I'm sic to death of hearing about how my chances of dieing from covid are 'minimal' when that isn't the point. I'm a full time frontline employee and live in caretaker for two grandparents, one who lost half her lung to childhood pnumonia and another who is a life long smoker. Why is it fair that I have to go home every night knowing I'm doing everything I can to protect them but others just can't be bothered to?
I would hate for another world war to happen anytime in the near future. Imagine how many people would just be blown up because they couldn't stand taking shelter and being inconvenienced for a year.
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SmokeEverything
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This is a "war" like the war on drugs or the war on terrorism. Look how well we're winning those.
You all keep saying this whole "other people cant be bothered to" nonsense. What should I be doing then? I wear a mask to go buy food or smokes or whatever, but I think this covid thing is a colossal psyop just the same.
What exactly would you consider a "victory" here? Zero cases? That's never going to happen. The "Vaccine" doesn't actually prevent you from getting sick so we all have to wear masks and distance. That's not a way to live forever. There's absolutely no goal anymore. Just rolling lockdowns forever. Are you comfortable living like this forever?
Personally a push to have all socialization done over the internet at the same time as all these social media websites are starting to heavily censor any kind of wrong think is scarier than the virus.
You being afraid of potential harm does not mean you get to force others into a state of having their human rights trampled on, my dude.
'If masks work, then why social distancing?
If social distancing works, then why wear masks?
If both of those work, then why a vaccine?
If all three of those work, then why can't I spend the holidays with my family.... but I can go Christmas shopping.. around hundreds of people.. for a family I can't be around.....?
Help.'
-Some guy on TikTok (Paraphrasing)
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Wooliumthethird
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Masks work but pairing them with social distancing works better
Masks HELP prevent you from getting the virus but a vaccine helps even more.
You shouldn't be going Christmas shopping OR traveling to visit family. Order your stuff online.
-some person on isitnormal that apparently has a few more braincells to rub together than person rambling on tiktok.
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SmokeEverything
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Exactly. Don't go to stores, only buy things on amazon. Once we get rid of this pesky "Independent buisiness" and "Being able to make money outside of the corporation" we can go back to normal. Oh, but wear masks and lockdown forever because none of this makes any sense outside of that being the actual gol.
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Wooliumthethird
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If independent businesses are going to survive during this time they need to set up infastructure for online sales. They should have already been working on it because even without the virus in person retail was in decline.
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SmokeEverything
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Online sales for what? Bars and bowling alleys and roller rinks?
I dont work retail I do independent handyman work like fixing lights in places and bikes and getting arcade and bowling equipment working. Oh wait let me learn how to use a computer good so I can do all that stuff online.
Everything going online is the whole core of the problem you idiot. You think everybody makes money in retail stores? What are you, 12?