Existence of a creator shouldn't be a doubt

Man, think of your body: nervous system, reproductive system, respiratory system, digestive system and the DNA.

It's an incredibly smart creation. How can you believe no one created this?! Would you believe it if I told you nobody made this site?

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  • It's ridiculously simple actually.

    If you believe in a creator of everything, I'm not telling you not to, but you nonetheless have to ask yourself where it came from. You're left with only only various forms of two options: Either it always existed or it came out of nowhere. That's literally it.

    These are the exact two problems creationists have with a universe without a creator. How could it have just existed forever? How could it have come into existence out of nowhere?

    Well the creationist solution is simply the introduction of something that requires the same questions be answered. Only this time we're talking about something much more complex.

    Consciousness is likely the most complex thing the universe has yet produced and it required billions of years to do so. Creationism claims mere elementary particles can't have arisen from nothing yet often finds it perfectly reasonable that a consciousness far superior to ours just... BLAM. Popped up. No construction of anything, no evolution, just BLAM. There it is, all-powerful. This is a far bigger ask.

    Then let's look at the possibility that this creator existed forever. Well let's talk about lines, line segments, and rays. Lines extend in two directions infinitely, line segments have a beginning and end, and rays extend in one direction infinitely and have a starting or ending place in the other direction depending on how you want to look at it.

    We might not know if the universe is a line or ray (has an end in this case) but if we're proposing a creator that always existed, its existence isn't a line segment and this creator's existence extends backward forever. The universe is a mere 14 billion years or so old. So how long does it take a creator floating around in nothingness to decide to create things? No matter how long we define that period as, the creator had that long an infinite amount of times.

    A trillion years? Had it not once but an infinite amount of times. How about 999999999999999999999 years? Infinite amount of times. Let's use 9s the size of atoms and extend the number all the way across the known universe. Infinite amount of times.

    Surely you see the complication here. It's a bit absurd to presume the decision ever changes, so you're again left with the proposal that the creator came out of nowhere shortly before the universe without any intelligent cause or cause at all behind it, all while asserting that something insanely more simple couldn't do the same thing. An already-constructed, complex creator popping out of nowhere is bordering on absurd, but materials manifesting might not be as they're quite possibly simply a representation or manifestation of mathematics which arguably would have always existed conceptually with or without an observer. The origin of the universe may very well reside in the incredibly simplistic fact that -1 plus 1 equals zero. We see it everyhere. Positive and negative charge. Matter and antimatter. If 0 is nothingness and -1 plus 1 is the same as 0, there's nothing that absurd about something versus nothing, so long as that something always comes in the form of two things that equal nothing, and this indeed seems to be the nature of the universe. We are probably nothing more than mathematics itself.

    The origin of the universe is an incredibly mysterious thing, but the trouble is that the introduction of a creator requires the exact same assumptions of a universe without one and then a million more.

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    • I think of the order in the universe and conclude that a great God made it, nothing in the universe created itself just like I didn't create myself. God is not like his creation; he didn't need a creator, but that's beyond my understanding.

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      • Why didn't it need a creator? You can't just exempt something.

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        • God is not like anything. Everything is his creation.

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    • To be fair the premise is a sound one. From what we know of the world so far something always came from something else. The Chicken from an egg, the egg from the chicken, the child from the mom, the chemical from the reaction. So its not a faulty premise to believe something as complex as a human body came from a creator when this fact is true of literally everything else in the universe. Not saying I agree/disagree but honestly this logic makes sense based on what we already know of science and the universe.

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      • But that's exactly the problem. Creationists say the universe can't be an egg without a chicken that made it, but in the process they make the creator a chicken that didn't come from an egg.

        At the point that they say the creator can be a chicken or an egg without a cause, they've just negated their very argument for the universe requiring a creator. If it's possible for something to come from nothing, then they've already conceded that the universe apparently didn't require a creator.

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  • My last comment on this sort of topic came across as a bit harsh. So I'll try making up for that here.

    There's almost certainly something out there. The diety might be from any of the major religions. It might not even be a named deity. It's not something we can prove either. Not until it's too late anyhow. By the time it's a known fact you'll either be dead or the end times of a religion will have struck.

    Regardless, follow whatever religion makes you happy. Just don't try to dictate others based on your religion.

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  • Your arguments for a creator or higher being needs to be a lot more solid than that. Any introduction to philosophy course skewers your argument very thoroughly.

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  • I think using god as the "excuse" for the complexity of an organism in it of it self is illogical. If you're saying "theres no way this just appeared" that doesn't necessarily PROVE the existence of a higher power. the chance of it zapping into existence is just as possible as a bearded dude because neither has any evidence to back it up, they're just what your monkey brain has lead to, because only other creation in life you've seen has been done by man. Theres a lot of research on how the nervous systems, eyes, DNA and all that shit evolved through a proccess of natural selection over millions and millions of years. The sun light causes slight radiation that create slight changes in new genes and the most successfull ones tend to be the ones alive to spread it further. To me saying it was all god is a cop out. you're refusing to think of why and using an idea that has no actual backing.

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  • Someone used this position on me, but I couldn't help them understand how that's circular reasoning

    Would biology not be complicated if it happened naturally? Would there not be order in the cosmos?

    All we know for sure is that there was a big bang which transformed a stockpile of "energy" into matter and other things and spread it out as far as it could go

    That alone doesn't prove a creator, that proves it's possible for the universe to have started

    I'm all for divinity though, maybe something like Tolkein's Valar or maybe energy is conscious on some level. I'd like to think crystals and astrology hold authentic spiritual value.

    I just think it's a leap of faith to say a singular being we should revere as god set in motion the precise order of things to have brought us here. I think it's more likely that people want to feel important and decide that life and existence must have been created by someone or something that has a plan that just so happens to also be in their particular best interests. I think it's more likely people started to notice this in others and how if they could get a group of people to believe one specific, detailed ideology from the mouth of one voice of god then they could in effect create their own army, civilisation, society, whatever they wanted. I think it's more likely if there was indeed a creator then they would want their creation to take care of itself instead of forcing it to work. I think it's more likely the universe runs on a possibly endless cycle of big bangs and sucking everything back up in black holes than Christianity. I think any good reason anyone can have with undergoing a faith in Christianity I could explain with psychology and how they could get the same thing without presupposing any of the Christ myths. I think morality is more important than faith.

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  • You can't logically justify belief inth the Supreme Being. You either believe by faith or you don't. I do believe, because of the complexity of the universe, but that's me.

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  • This is essentially the Watchmaker analogy

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  • When we are kids we all thought there are people In side the tv. When we grow up and learn the technology behind the television we know, there are no people inside the tv.
    You are talking about the human physical mechanisms. But yet, have no idea about how it works. Hence it's magic for you. Someone or you obviously trying to say God made it. Same as tv. Magic people in side the tv till you don't know. Experience the science of yoga. You'll figure it out let's say the technology behind the TV. Possibility what you say how, can be known if you willing to explore. It's up to individuals.

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    • Well, learning the technology behind the television doesn't make you think it doesn't work in a smart way and noone made it.

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      • You missed the point.
        Ok let's go deeper.
        Atom. That's the source. If you put an atom it reacts one way. If you put two, it's a different reaction. The creation is made with actions and reactions. The reason why people don't want to explore this because that process is so suffisticated and complex but yet can be discriminate and see the reality behind it. Those who don't like to invest time on that simply stick with creator made it concept while those who willing to search will realize such a small action plus action has made a vast existence.
        If you put your water tap running and go away for a weekend, when you come back the whole kitchen is flooded, water on the power outlets, electrical fire has been gone on. Kitchen is destroyed. Your cat caught fire. It ran away to the neighbors garage, garage is on fire. He lost his car. Without a car he couldn't go and pick his kid from school. Kid waiting for dad alone eventually try to come home alone get lost. Now a whole swat team is on searching mission. They find the kid. And the Sargent is late for his anniversary because he was on the mission. His wife is mad and he had to sleep on the couch in his anniversary. Why, because some idiot left the water tap on.
        Majority will call this scenario stupid. Because no one like to invest some time to go one by one incident, disintegrate. And those who does will see everything is connected. One small action will affect a vast incident. People simply go with the idea of creator because they can't do this disintegrate. And when some couldn't find anything to keep up with the concept of the god they say what is the intelligence behind the atom reaction that's so that's the god. Again, even tho an atom cannot be disintegrate, it's reaction can explain.
        It's a choice. Do we believe God or seek the reality of the existence those who lazy to invest them self to seek simple embrace the concept of the god.

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  • We were all created by creators.

    It's called your parents fucking. Now shut the Hell up, that shit is gross. thanks

    But yeah I don't care if people believe in religion or god, gods, goddesses, whatever. Just live and let live, and don't hurt anyone. Especially with your belief system...that means let your kids be themselves, just keep a careful eye on them and don't interfere TOO much, ya know? lol thanks for reading. :)

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  • nobody can ever know

    its not worth arguin about

    worry about the shit you can do somethin about in your life

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    • These incredibly smart systems in my body must have been created by a creator. I was created by a creator. I know that far.

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      • The philosophers long ago debunked that the appearance of being created did not mean that there was creator.

        This subject is covered in any introduction to philosophy course (usually numbered in the USA as: Philosophy 101).

        I suggest you read up on the this from internet sites before posting again on this subject. You can read all the pro and con and various other theories.

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        • I know of those theories.

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      • you speculate that far

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      • Then you're on the right track. The Holy Spirit is speaking to you and you are starting to listen. Open scripture and look at all of the prophecies that have been fufilled, and the ones that are being fufilled, and the ones that are yet to be fufilled. Isaiah 53 which was written 500 years before the birth of Christ is a good place to start. I recommend The KJV Bible as it's as close as an English speaker is going to get to the original word.

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        • Thank you. I meant I don't know further than this like how God didn't need a creator. But I'm Muslim.

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  • The argument is always "well the human body has flaws so something intelligent did not make it."

    But if you look at other intelligent inventions like the ones made by man, take an automobile for example, very intelligent design. It is not perfect. Eventually it will die as well. I think theres a good chance there was intelligence that created this world its too advanced in my opinion to have just created itself out of chance.

    But there is not a way to know for sure. Science can not solve this mystery just like it cant solve the mystery of death. Unless they invent a time machine and go back theyre never gonna know for sure.

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    • I've never heard anyone who has any real understanding of evolution make that argument. It does, however, sound like a strawman argument that might be made by those who refuse to acknowledge the reality of evolution.

      The engine that drives evolutionary change is mismatches between organisms and their environment. If you wish, you could call those "flaws".

      If anything, it would seem to me that the flaws you refer to should make any thinking person question the existence of God - or at least the existence of an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, loving deity. To use the analogy you employ, car makers don't produce perfect products due to the cost of doing so, time constraints, the fact that designers and builders are human and so make errors during construction, and the limited lifespan of any complex, non-self-repairing device with many moving parts. None of those limitations would need to apply to a timeless, all-knowing, all-powerful deity who cared about his creations.

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  • You should look into evolution through natural selection. The complex organisms we have today evolved from simpler ones, which themselves evolved from simpler ones, etc. They didn't just appear out of nowhere. Even the simplest cells took millions of years to evolve from biomolecules.

    And they evolved due to natural selection, ie. because the newly evolved organisms survived better than the old unevolved organisms, and so were able to propagate and replace the older organisms. They became more complex and intelligent over time because that just so happened to benefit them for survival. They didn't evolve for any particular reason (ie. teleology), like in order to create us. We're here completely incidentally.

    A better argument for god would be that the universe was created or that it had the right conditions for life (or even matter) to exist, but then the anthropic principle would apply. And in any case, that just goes into the neverending metaphysical philosophy of why something exists rather than nothing, and all that pointless unanswerable rambling.

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  • This is something that's come to be called the Blind Watchmaker fallacy due to an English bible-thumper named William Paley more than 200 years ago comparing biological organisms with a pocket watch, which were the most complex devices of his time. Prior to him, philosophers all the way back to Roman times expressed similar ideas. It was a fallacious comparison then, and it still is.

    If you don't comprehend how evolution works, that's not because the scientific theory is wrong; it's because you've never taken the time to learn how evolution works.

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    • I've learned about evolution. I know what they say: the beneficial mutations stayed and multiplied and the unbeneficial ones died. And there was SO long time for the evolution. But I don't lack critical thinking and I still believe there's no way these incredibly smart things happened without intention.

      I know it's an old argument. It's a simple strong old argument. And it's still correct even when they're trying to make us not believe our common sense.

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      • "Common sense" tells me the Earth is flat, the sun orbits it, and that quantum mechanics is totally absurd.

        Believe whatever ridiculous nonsense you need to believe, brah.

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        • "'Common sense' tells me the Earth is flat, the sun orbits it, and that quantum mechanics is totally absurd." I've seen this kind of argument before and it's never made sense to me. None of those things you listed are common sense.

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  • The greatest trick I ever pulled was convincing you I didn’t exist.

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