How is it a stereotype exactly? It’s a fact that black people were slaves in this country not white people. We had the Jim Crow laws. black people were attacked by the kkk not white people. these are facts and not the same as stereotypes.
I hate to tell you this, man but white people were, in fact, slaves in this country, to include my ggg grandmother. Irish "indentured servants" were a hot commodity in Virginia in the 18th to 19th centuries.
Yes indentured servitude was a thing but to act like it was the same thing that black slaves had to deal with is not only wrong but stupid. And after slaverly ended we had Jim Crow laws that were against blacks not whites. And after that we had and still have the drug war.
Anything by Michael tonry holds little weight with most scholars and peers. His methods of research and conclusions are quite questionable. He is also a walking personification of white guilt imho.
How can a person say that the war on drugs specifically targets blacks? If they weren't doing or selling drugs, there would simply be nothing to target.
Where I live, most shooting victims are black. Most shooters convicted of killing them? Black.
If a crime force decided to increase heat on homicides in an area like mine, they would, in effect be targeting mostly black men. Is it targeting when you go after the ones who are committing murder, no matter what their race, or just the most effective and common sense way to fight crime?
Anyone can find a statistic somewhere that says what they want it to say. Statisticians can sway numbers to fit their personal or ideological needs, but when you have 10 or 50 or 200 studies that say otherwise, you begin to see how guys like Michael tonry just twist things around to make people believe he knows what he is talking about.
Do you want me to send you different statistics or are you saying that all statisticians sway numbers to fit their personal and ideological needs? In which case, you're denying that all numbers have any basis. Nobody can prove anything to you in that case, so I won't try.
I even tried to give you the benefit of a doubt. When I googled Michael Tonry for more information (adding "reputation" for more emphasis) nothing came up. When I went to the third page of google searching for any reputable defense, I found one anti-Hillary article on the city journal with no reference sheet to back up any of its claims. For more information on the websites legitimacy I used "mediabiasfactcheck.com" which logs media bias and reputable sources - to which I found that it's a nearly alt-right publication that hurts the conservative cause. Your argument that he holds little weight with most scholars is incorrect. If he did, scholars would have said so somewhere other than an extremist media publication.
You are not providing statistics otherwise. You are repeating arguments that were mentioned in my source - that you obviously didn't read - because someone told you that Micheal Tonry holds little weight (despite the fact that he has an Ivy League education, is a university professor, and holds the position of director at the nearly as prestigious Michigan University). If people didn't respect him, he wouldn't have those positions. Source: https://www.law.umn.edu/profiles/michael-tonry
And why did you bring up murder? Are we discussing that or the war on drugs? By the way, if you disagree with Tonry so much his phone number and email are also available. If he's so obviously wrong, feel free to debate with him.
Not to long ago nixions top aid said that they knew they were lying but they wanted to control the black population and the hippies cause they didn’t support them that’s a fact. Look it up
I cannot deny that that is a fact. I'm not well versed on that individual piece of history, but I'm sure it's true from what I've heard.
I didn't say that whites can't be assholes. I'm saying that it is not only very disingenuous of people to imply that whites are any worse people or have been through any less hardships than other races or cultures, but it is also very unintelligent and misinformed.
If we were talking about the world I’d say that whites have had it just as bad as anyone else. But we are talking about this country’s history not the worlds. And it is a fact that in this country whites had it easier than blacks. I’m not saying all white people are bad. I’m white myself and I believe that most people are not racist or bad. But we should be able to admit the things we did in the past. That way we are not doomed to repeat it.
"not well-versed in that period of history"
Why didn't you take the time to research it and inform yourself before forming an opinion?
My response to your latter statement would likely be similar to Lestat's. White people aren't inherently worse than anyone else. You're not at fault for what your ancestors did. However, I would love if more people would recognize what they did and how it still affects minorities today.
Quote directly:
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
+ https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/
American slavery and indentured servitude are factually different.
Foremost, indentured servants CHOSE to be indentured servants. They were poor European people who wanted to come to America but couldn't pay for it. In exchange for the freedom America offered, they would work for an agreed upon matter of years before being released as free people and receiving "freedom dues" which may include money, land, housing, and/or animals to begin a farm of their own. Of course this wasn't the only reason indentured servants chose (keyword of the day!) to accept that status. They might be faced with prison time and elect to do work as opposed to sentencing similar to modern-day correctional boot camps (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/197018.pdf). Do you think slaves had that option? They were owned until the day they died and never received compensation. Irish Indentured Servitude also didn't come with the systematic deep racism that African Slavery did. Once you were a free Irish man, you were free. If you were free and black? Good luck getting an education, property, or any form of job.
Of course, I don't think indentured servitude is okay. It's banned in most countries currently. There's just a difference between "I signed my rights away" and "I never had any rights from the beginning and never will"
Edit: I recommend you read a book called "Copper Sun" by Sharon Draper. It's historical fiction, but tells the story of an indentured servant (Polly) and an African Slave (Amari) who become friends at a plantation and agree to run away together to a then Spanish Colony in modern day Florida. Due to the fact that it hops between perspectives, you see the obvious transition between "Slave" and "Indentured Servant". It's a book I loved as a teenager, not sure it's still good though haha.
Do you honestly believe that indentured servants CHOSE to Gove away 25 of their precious years Being beaten, raped, and worked to death to get out of Europe? Come on.
Half of my family are descended from the Irish indentured. What actually happened is this: The English purged the prisons of Ireland by offering them new lives in America with promises of free housing and food for a time and freedom after their sentence time was over. The average sentence was 25 years, so every servant had to give that amount of time to the farmers they were sold to. They were unaware that they would have to stay so long. After their terms were over, most were either forced to stay as unpaid workers or decided to stay because they had children with the landowners and did not wish to leave their kids. Some were allowed to leave as they were too old to be profitable slaves. Not one record exists of a single Irish slave receiving any remuneration at all.
A few facts about slavery that most people don't know
The first KNOWN slave owner in America was indeed a black African immigrant who brought a slave back from Africa. He petitioned parliament for the right to keep his slave and was given the right.
Africans from the Barbary coast were constantly invading the western coastlines of Europe to feed a thriving white slave trade in northern africa. Some estimates put the number of these slaves at 2,5 million, but a more realistic 1.5 million is agreed upon by most historians. Yes, blacks have enslaved whites several times throughout history.
If you are black and from Louisiana, it is more likely that the owner of your most recently enslaved ancestor was a black or partially black owner.
Most societies in world history have enslaved someone, to include China, the middle east, every single country or society in Africa, and even Some of the native Americans.
Slavery is still alive and well in Africa
Human trafficking is alive and well in nearly every country in the world today.
You can research any of my points above and find them to be true if you wish to spend the time, but either way, I beg for your response on the following questions: With all of the atrocities of slavery in all the countries where it has existed throughout history, why is it that it is white americans, and ONLY white Americans that are told they must pay in some way for their sins? Why are the Africans who enslaved whites never demonized or told that they owe something to Europe for their sins? And if whites did repay the descendants of former slaves, would you not expect complete and utter negation? At what point will you stop hating whites for the same thing that blacks did to them?
Why do you feel the need to deflect and diminish what white Americans have done? Do you believe that it makes it ok for white Americans to own slaves if black people also owned slaves? Do you believe that it makes it ok for black people to be enslaved if the Irish were forced into indentured servitude?
If you started a post about the horrors of white Europeans being enslaved, I guarantee you that nobody would hijack the post by bringing up what white Americans did. If you started a post about the horrors inflicted on the Irish, I assure you that nobody would hijack the post by bringing up black slaves.
So, what compels you to disregard the struggles of other people? What makes you feel like you have to center this discussion on yourself?
No ones saying that white Americans should or have to pay for what white people did in the past. Some people do believe that and they are wrong. What I’ve been saying is we need to remember the past and what we have done.
Double standards and racism
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How is it a stereotype exactly? It’s a fact that black people were slaves in this country not white people. We had the Jim Crow laws. black people were attacked by the kkk not white people. these are facts and not the same as stereotypes.
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charli.m
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I hate to tell you this, man but white people were, in fact, slaves in this country, to include my ggg grandmother. Irish "indentured servants" were a hot commodity in Virginia in the 18th to 19th centuries.
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Lestat565
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cinderfloof
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Yes indentured servitude was a thing but to act like it was the same thing that black slaves had to deal with is not only wrong but stupid. And after slaverly ended we had Jim Crow laws that were against blacks not whites. And after that we had and still have the drug war.
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You believe the drug war is directed at black people?
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cinderfloof
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Lestat565
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https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1155&context=uclf
Directed? Debatable. Disproportionally affected? Yes.
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Anything by Michael tonry holds little weight with most scholars and peers. His methods of research and conclusions are quite questionable. He is also a walking personification of white guilt imho.
How can a person say that the war on drugs specifically targets blacks? If they weren't doing or selling drugs, there would simply be nothing to target.
Where I live, most shooting victims are black. Most shooters convicted of killing them? Black.
If a crime force decided to increase heat on homicides in an area like mine, they would, in effect be targeting mostly black men. Is it targeting when you go after the ones who are committing murder, no matter what their race, or just the most effective and common sense way to fight crime?
Anyone can find a statistic somewhere that says what they want it to say. Statisticians can sway numbers to fit their personal or ideological needs, but when you have 10 or 50 or 200 studies that say otherwise, you begin to see how guys like Michael tonry just twist things around to make people believe he knows what he is talking about.
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cinderfloof
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Do you want me to send you different statistics or are you saying that all statisticians sway numbers to fit their personal and ideological needs? In which case, you're denying that all numbers have any basis. Nobody can prove anything to you in that case, so I won't try.
I even tried to give you the benefit of a doubt. When I googled Michael Tonry for more information (adding "reputation" for more emphasis) nothing came up. When I went to the third page of google searching for any reputable defense, I found one anti-Hillary article on the city journal with no reference sheet to back up any of its claims. For more information on the websites legitimacy I used "mediabiasfactcheck.com" which logs media bias and reputable sources - to which I found that it's a nearly alt-right publication that hurts the conservative cause. Your argument that he holds little weight with most scholars is incorrect. If he did, scholars would have said so somewhere other than an extremist media publication.
You are not providing statistics otherwise. You are repeating arguments that were mentioned in my source - that you obviously didn't read - because someone told you that Micheal Tonry holds little weight (despite the fact that he has an Ivy League education, is a university professor, and holds the position of director at the nearly as prestigious Michigan University). If people didn't respect him, he wouldn't have those positions. Source: https://www.law.umn.edu/profiles/michael-tonry
And why did you bring up murder? Are we discussing that or the war on drugs? By the way, if you disagree with Tonry so much his phone number and email are also available. If he's so obviously wrong, feel free to debate with him.
Not to long ago nixions top aid said that they knew they were lying but they wanted to control the black population and the hippies cause they didn’t support them that’s a fact. Look it up
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I cannot deny that that is a fact. I'm not well versed on that individual piece of history, but I'm sure it's true from what I've heard.
I didn't say that whites can't be assholes. I'm saying that it is not only very disingenuous of people to imply that whites are any worse people or have been through any less hardships than other races or cultures, but it is also very unintelligent and misinformed.
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Lestat565
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If we were talking about the world I’d say that whites have had it just as bad as anyone else. But we are talking about this country’s history not the worlds. And it is a fact that in this country whites had it easier than blacks. I’m not saying all white people are bad. I’m white myself and I believe that most people are not racist or bad. But we should be able to admit the things we did in the past. That way we are not doomed to repeat it.
"not well-versed in that period of history"
Why didn't you take the time to research it and inform yourself before forming an opinion?
My response to your latter statement would likely be similar to Lestat's. White people aren't inherently worse than anyone else. You're not at fault for what your ancestors did. However, I would love if more people would recognize what they did and how it still affects minorities today.
Quote directly:
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
+ https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/
American slavery and indentured servitude are factually different.
Foremost, indentured servants CHOSE to be indentured servants. They were poor European people who wanted to come to America but couldn't pay for it. In exchange for the freedom America offered, they would work for an agreed upon matter of years before being released as free people and receiving "freedom dues" which may include money, land, housing, and/or animals to begin a farm of their own. Of course this wasn't the only reason indentured servants chose (keyword of the day!) to accept that status. They might be faced with prison time and elect to do work as opposed to sentencing similar to modern-day correctional boot camps (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/197018.pdf). Do you think slaves had that option? They were owned until the day they died and never received compensation. Irish Indentured Servitude also didn't come with the systematic deep racism that African Slavery did. Once you were a free Irish man, you were free. If you were free and black? Good luck getting an education, property, or any form of job.
Of course, I don't think indentured servitude is okay. It's banned in most countries currently. There's just a difference between "I signed my rights away" and "I never had any rights from the beginning and never will"
Edit: I recommend you read a book called "Copper Sun" by Sharon Draper. It's historical fiction, but tells the story of an indentured servant (Polly) and an African Slave (Amari) who become friends at a plantation and agree to run away together to a then Spanish Colony in modern day Florida. Due to the fact that it hops between perspectives, you see the obvious transition between "Slave" and "Indentured Servant". It's a book I loved as a teenager, not sure it's still good though haha.
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Lestat565
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Do you honestly believe that indentured servants CHOSE to Gove away 25 of their precious years Being beaten, raped, and worked to death to get out of Europe? Come on.
Half of my family are descended from the Irish indentured. What actually happened is this: The English purged the prisons of Ireland by offering them new lives in America with promises of free housing and food for a time and freedom after their sentence time was over. The average sentence was 25 years, so every servant had to give that amount of time to the farmers they were sold to. They were unaware that they would have to stay so long. After their terms were over, most were either forced to stay as unpaid workers or decided to stay because they had children with the landowners and did not wish to leave their kids. Some were allowed to leave as they were too old to be profitable slaves. Not one record exists of a single Irish slave receiving any remuneration at all.
A few facts about slavery that most people don't know
The first KNOWN slave owner in America was indeed a black African immigrant who brought a slave back from Africa. He petitioned parliament for the right to keep his slave and was given the right.
Africans from the Barbary coast were constantly invading the western coastlines of Europe to feed a thriving white slave trade in northern africa. Some estimates put the number of these slaves at 2,5 million, but a more realistic 1.5 million is agreed upon by most historians. Yes, blacks have enslaved whites several times throughout history.
If you are black and from Louisiana, it is more likely that the owner of your most recently enslaved ancestor was a black or partially black owner.
Most societies in world history have enslaved someone, to include China, the middle east, every single country or society in Africa, and even Some of the native Americans.
Slavery is still alive and well in Africa
Human trafficking is alive and well in nearly every country in the world today.
You can research any of my points above and find them to be true if you wish to spend the time, but either way, I beg for your response on the following questions: With all of the atrocities of slavery in all the countries where it has existed throughout history, why is it that it is white americans, and ONLY white Americans that are told they must pay in some way for their sins? Why are the Africans who enslaved whites never demonized or told that they owe something to Europe for their sins? And if whites did repay the descendants of former slaves, would you not expect complete and utter negation? At what point will you stop hating whites for the same thing that blacks did to them?
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Lestat565
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I have a question for you.
Why do you feel the need to deflect and diminish what white Americans have done? Do you believe that it makes it ok for white Americans to own slaves if black people also owned slaves? Do you believe that it makes it ok for black people to be enslaved if the Irish were forced into indentured servitude?
If you started a post about the horrors of white Europeans being enslaved, I guarantee you that nobody would hijack the post by bringing up what white Americans did. If you started a post about the horrors inflicted on the Irish, I assure you that nobody would hijack the post by bringing up black slaves.
So, what compels you to disregard the struggles of other people? What makes you feel like you have to center this discussion on yourself?
No ones saying that white Americans should or have to pay for what white people did in the past. Some people do believe that and they are wrong. What I’ve been saying is we need to remember the past and what we have done.
Very well put.
There's no arguing with racist trolls :/
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Lestat565
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Anonymous Post Author
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How am I racist for saying some of the things that did happen?
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charli.m
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You're not.
He's a racist idiot troll. There's no arguing with them. They just bullshit.
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Lestat565
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Oh sorry my bad
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charli.m
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No worries.
I was bred to be extremely anti racist... but reality has made me reassess the truth.
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charli.m
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Not only are you practically a month late with this so called reply, but you don't even have the decency to make some sense with it. Well done.