it's also a "normal" sexual orientation, in the sense of being a "primary sexual orientation" to be attracted to same-age same-sex members of your species.
or would you have all the gays and lesbians believe they are not normal and should get help to be cured of their mental illness?
Thats the problem. It's downplayed as "illness" or distorted sexuality element, which actually is counterproductive. You can't "cure" a pedophile. Neither with prison, nor with other things.
Now, that will sound "weird" on many different levels, but i'd actually encourage them to be open about what they are without repercussions and receive support and chemical castrations as applicable.(on a voluntary basis).
Aside from that: If you base your idea on what is normal on sexual behaviour in nature, then that very much reinforces pedophilia as "normal" as well...you may check up on what weasels males do to freshborn females.
As stated, i don't want the potential severity downplayed, but it also helps no one to push this into a "not normal/criminal" corner and forget about it while making it impossible for people to come forward and openly admit their desires and asking for help without society trying to bash their heads in. It especially doesn't help the children in the few cases one of them finally snaps.
As a lesbian I hope your not a fan of Michele Bachman her and her husband run a clinic that administers conversion Therapy on homosexuals it is sad that such a person can have any success in politics
hu? never heard of her. but i fear you misunderstood? I am lesbian myself, i just raised that as counterpoint to his "normal would be sexually mature opposite-sex same-species"-comment.
because same sex-attraction is pretty damned normal for me.
What i was trying to say is that the same way you can't "heal" a homosexual person, you also can't "heal" a pedophile person.
Neither with prison nor with conversion. Because that is what they are, it's not an illness and it's not a mental issue.
While thankfully, homosexuality is accepted in todays society, also thankfully, pederasty is NOT.
But those people need other solutions, and they can't be found by denying their nature. Lock a pedophile up for 30 years, he's still a pedophile.
Threaten him to make him a social outcast, he'll keep secret about it.
It's not unlike homosexuality was considered when it was still illegal and socially inacceptable in many countries. Thats why i used it for parallels.
Pedophiles don't need threats and hatred, they need understanding and chemical castration.
I disagree pedophilia is a mental illness and the dsm is in agreeance with me. Homosexualy rightly was removed in the 70s or 80s not sure. Bachman was a republican candidate for president but I'm pretty sure she dropped out. And if you look at the research on chemical castration it actually makes these people committ more of these crimes they just use other things besides their penis. The theory is that this is because the individuals are sexually frustrated. I think conversion therapy would actually be a better option. But the truth is is that their is no good way to solve the problem. I say give them life sentences if they committ the crime more than once. By the way homosexuality is still illegal in many Muslim countries
Yes, the DMS (currently) says pedophilia is a disorder, but it doesn't define pedophilia the way you probably think it does. According to their definition, if you are sexually attracted to kids, but don't act on it, and are not prevented having an otherwise normal life, you're NOT a pedophile. Likewise, if you get off on cross-dressing, but you're totally content with that, you're not a transvestite.
Yes, that's strange at they intend to fix it. The next version will more logically say that if you're attracted to kids, you're a pedophile, and if you cross-dress for sexual purposes you're a transvestite. But neither is considered a disorder unless it's hurting your or someone else.
i know in europe there ARE discussions about the nature of pedophilia.
And more and more experts seem to believe that it's the same thing as homosexuality: a primary sexual attraction.
Neither a mental illness nor a fetish.
As for the chemical castration, i was not fully aware, as i have to admit. I was under the belief that it would also be a hormone therapy that ultimately lowered the "libido/testosterone/whatever" similar to regular castration.
As far as i know, conversion therapy failed in the past and fails today, with a 80+% failure rate(at least in europe).
As mentioned, for those that actually ACT on their desires, i'd be all for very extreme punishments.
For those that don't intend to do so, though, i'd rather support them and have them be open about what they are. After all, if they, say, agree to be voluntary registered in a database, that may help their resolve to NOT act upon their desire if tempted, knowing the police would instantly know about them if they commited a crime.
As for the muslim countries,in several you may also marry young girls after their menarch, so yes, having homosexual sex there may be illegal while forcing oneself on a 9-year old would be perfectly legal.
If by normal you mean 'expected to occur in a certain percent of the population', then yes, it's normal to find a few pedophiles here and there. It's not common, and it's NOT normal in terms of our basic purpose, which is to reproduce. It's counter-productive. Am I supposed to say it's normal to spare someone's feelings? I think not. I'm not even saying that it's not normal with ANY sort of negativity, I mean, it happens, and just like any other 'thang' it should be dealt with openly and with understanding, I agree. It's not going to 'go away' if people ignore it or try to lock it away, I understand this. But normal? No, this is not normal in any way, shape or form. Even beyond just the biological reason of reproduction, I don't think that too many pedophiles don't feel or know that sexual contact with a small child is wrong or something that they should NOT be doing, without being taught this. Of course, different cultures and different times have different 'rules', but I'm talking about a case of say a 35 yr old man and a 4 yr old girl. An extreme. I don't think that at any time that this 35 yr old man is doing what he's doing, that he actually thinks it's OK. Not even due exclusively to the sexual part, but the victimization, no matter what culture or time he lives in.
I don't have a problem with anyone's sexual preference....and as long as they do not harm anyone physically or emotionally with any sort of sexual act, fine. You can be a pedophile all day long, as long as you do not act on your desires inappropriately.
i think the main problem of our mutual understanding lies in the definition of "normal".
For me, "normal" includes minority elements that are to be expected.
In that logic, it's "normal" for me that a small child wets the bed. It's not "normal" if that happens every night or even with regularity. But in your definition, the "normal" case would be that a small child does not wet the bed, therefore it would be ABNORMAL for that to happen. Even if it's a 5-year old and happened once as an accident.
The same thing here. While the MAJORITY of people may be heterosexual, that does not mean only heterosexuality is normal. It's the de-facto STANDARD, but normal and standard are different words for a reason.
Being homosexual is JUST as normal, and, in that venue, pedophilia is ALSO normal. Mark that i over and over said that i am glad there are laws and they should never ACT on that sexual orientation. But their attraction to children is, unfortunately, natural. In that context it's a "normal" sexual orientation that can't be dealt with.
Necrophilia is a fetish. Pedophilia is not. Thats what i'm trying to get across. The handling and the measures taken need to be different. Much as you can't forbid a person to be gay and expect him to change, you can't do that with pedophilia. They shouldn't be cornered and hated, but helped to overcome their nature instead.
Not so much our definition of normal, maybe it's more due to the fact that I don't see humans as having any 'higher purpose' above any other animal. Our purpose is to reproduce and care for our children so that they can reproduce. Just because we've created this 'society' and can do other things with our lives, doesn't mean to me that we have any other purpose than to carry on our species. I look at things on a basic level, to me there really is no other level since there's no proof of such.
Can people exist and have such extreme alternate sexual preferences? Yes. And that's fine. But to me, it's not normal because it goes against what I see is our only REAL purpose (our only purpose that we can prove we have). So..biologically, naturally, NOT normal.
well, but you say yourself, if THAT is our purpose, then it should be perfectly fine that boys and girls are sexually active the moment they CAN reproduce. That means a girl as young as 9 should freely have sex because she already had her period.
If you reduce it to basic animalistic criteria, that should be perfectly normal- which is what i claim all along. or by what reason, using your own argumentation, would it be "normal" that a young female specimen perfectly capable of becoming pregnant is not sexually active until many years later?
I am not sure if I understand you well, if you suggest chemical castration basically for all pedophiles. I think for most pedophiles the benefits of chemical castration are pretty low and the side effects outweigh benefits. But for some pedophiles it can be a good option.
I completely understand, and would never bash anyone for their sexual orientation. I just disagree that it's 'normal'. There's a reason why most men and women are sexually attracted to an 'appropriate' partner. Sexual attraction and who one may ACTUALLY have sex with will differ, of course, I'm just speaking on the base attraction here.
The purpose of sex is to reproduce, nothing more (yes, we've made it into more, and we do it for other reasons, but biologically speaking it's for reproduction). Obviously, if you're overwhelmingly compelled to have sex with someone/something that will not result in offspring then there's something wrong. BUT that's just on a biological level, I'm not saying that 'gays are wrong and shouldn't exist'. I'm just saying from a survival of the species point of view, it's a defect. And not normal.
What do weasels do? I looked and looked for any scrap of what you might be referring to and nothing points to anything remotely close to males raping newborn females (or whatever). All the information I found was actually contrary to that, mainly since weasels are solitary and a male and female wouldn't be living together, a sexually mature male shouldn't be present to molest the babies.
Yes, but the definition of normal goes a bit beyond "what is needed" in human society.
On the reproduction basis, anything starting from oral sex and anal sex to diverse fetishes like BDSM, exhibitionism, watersports or bondage are all not normal.
Now while many things MAY be specialized, the general consensus seems to be that human sexuality goes BEYOND mere reproduction.
As for weasels, yep, they are solitary. If the mother(who alone stays with the young) is out gathering food, a close-by male will sometimes enter the den and pre-impregnate the young females.
But the basic point i tried to make is that in mother nature, or what is defined as "normal" in reproduction, females will be mated with as soon and sometimes before they are ready to be impregnated, and sometimes against their will. So from that point of view, having sex with a 11-year old that already has her period would be more "normal" than oral sex with a consenting partner. That's why i'm trying to say it's not something tolerable, but not something unnatural or abnormal in the grander context. Placing it in a "unnatural and mentally ill"-area is equivalent to denying the problem, because to find an effective solution, you must first accept the problem for what it is.
Children are innocent, and don't understand sex. Pedophila is wrong, whether it is normal or not. Now many people will disagree with me here because they have never been sexually abused as a child, and simply don't understand it. Children get raped everyday, and normalizing pedophila is not going to help society.
Does being a pedophile make one a "bad"person?
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and there's the problem.
it's also a "normal" sexual orientation, in the sense of being a "primary sexual orientation" to be attracted to same-age same-sex members of your species.
or would you have all the gays and lesbians believe they are not normal and should get help to be cured of their mental illness?
Thats the problem. It's downplayed as "illness" or distorted sexuality element, which actually is counterproductive. You can't "cure" a pedophile. Neither with prison, nor with other things.
Now, that will sound "weird" on many different levels, but i'd actually encourage them to be open about what they are without repercussions and receive support and chemical castrations as applicable.(on a voluntary basis).
Aside from that: If you base your idea on what is normal on sexual behaviour in nature, then that very much reinforces pedophilia as "normal" as well...you may check up on what weasels males do to freshborn females.
As stated, i don't want the potential severity downplayed, but it also helps no one to push this into a "not normal/criminal" corner and forget about it while making it impossible for people to come forward and openly admit their desires and asking for help without society trying to bash their heads in. It especially doesn't help the children in the few cases one of them finally snaps.
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Satchmo
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wigsplitz
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As a lesbian I hope your not a fan of Michele Bachman her and her husband run a clinic that administers conversion Therapy on homosexuals it is sad that such a person can have any success in politics
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hu? never heard of her. but i fear you misunderstood? I am lesbian myself, i just raised that as counterpoint to his "normal would be sexually mature opposite-sex same-species"-comment.
because same sex-attraction is pretty damned normal for me.
What i was trying to say is that the same way you can't "heal" a homosexual person, you also can't "heal" a pedophile person.
Neither with prison nor with conversion. Because that is what they are, it's not an illness and it's not a mental issue.
While thankfully, homosexuality is accepted in todays society, also thankfully, pederasty is NOT.
But those people need other solutions, and they can't be found by denying their nature. Lock a pedophile up for 30 years, he's still a pedophile.
Threaten him to make him a social outcast, he'll keep secret about it.
It's not unlike homosexuality was considered when it was still illegal and socially inacceptable in many countries. Thats why i used it for parallels.
Pedophiles don't need threats and hatred, they need understanding and chemical castration.
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wigsplitz
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I disagree pedophilia is a mental illness and the dsm is in agreeance with me. Homosexualy rightly was removed in the 70s or 80s not sure. Bachman was a republican candidate for president but I'm pretty sure she dropped out. And if you look at the research on chemical castration it actually makes these people committ more of these crimes they just use other things besides their penis. The theory is that this is because the individuals are sexually frustrated. I think conversion therapy would actually be a better option. But the truth is is that their is no good way to solve the problem. I say give them life sentences if they committ the crime more than once. By the way homosexuality is still illegal in many Muslim countries
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TerryVie
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Yes, the DMS (currently) says pedophilia is a disorder, but it doesn't define pedophilia the way you probably think it does. According to their definition, if you are sexually attracted to kids, but don't act on it, and are not prevented having an otherwise normal life, you're NOT a pedophile. Likewise, if you get off on cross-dressing, but you're totally content with that, you're not a transvestite.
Yes, that's strange at they intend to fix it. The next version will more logically say that if you're attracted to kids, you're a pedophile, and if you cross-dress for sexual purposes you're a transvestite. But neither is considered a disorder unless it's hurting your or someone else.
the dsm in your country may.
i know in europe there ARE discussions about the nature of pedophilia.
And more and more experts seem to believe that it's the same thing as homosexuality: a primary sexual attraction.
Neither a mental illness nor a fetish.
As for the chemical castration, i was not fully aware, as i have to admit. I was under the belief that it would also be a hormone therapy that ultimately lowered the "libido/testosterone/whatever" similar to regular castration.
As far as i know, conversion therapy failed in the past and fails today, with a 80+% failure rate(at least in europe).
As mentioned, for those that actually ACT on their desires, i'd be all for very extreme punishments.
For those that don't intend to do so, though, i'd rather support them and have them be open about what they are. After all, if they, say, agree to be voluntary registered in a database, that may help their resolve to NOT act upon their desire if tempted, knowing the police would instantly know about them if they commited a crime.
As for the muslim countries,in several you may also marry young girls after their menarch, so yes, having homosexual sex there may be illegal while forcing oneself on a 9-year old would be perfectly legal.
If by normal you mean 'expected to occur in a certain percent of the population', then yes, it's normal to find a few pedophiles here and there. It's not common, and it's NOT normal in terms of our basic purpose, which is to reproduce. It's counter-productive. Am I supposed to say it's normal to spare someone's feelings? I think not. I'm not even saying that it's not normal with ANY sort of negativity, I mean, it happens, and just like any other 'thang' it should be dealt with openly and with understanding, I agree. It's not going to 'go away' if people ignore it or try to lock it away, I understand this. But normal? No, this is not normal in any way, shape or form. Even beyond just the biological reason of reproduction, I don't think that too many pedophiles don't feel or know that sexual contact with a small child is wrong or something that they should NOT be doing, without being taught this. Of course, different cultures and different times have different 'rules', but I'm talking about a case of say a 35 yr old man and a 4 yr old girl. An extreme. I don't think that at any time that this 35 yr old man is doing what he's doing, that he actually thinks it's OK. Not even due exclusively to the sexual part, but the victimization, no matter what culture or time he lives in.
I don't have a problem with anyone's sexual preference....and as long as they do not harm anyone physically or emotionally with any sort of sexual act, fine. You can be a pedophile all day long, as long as you do not act on your desires inappropriately.
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i think the main problem of our mutual understanding lies in the definition of "normal".
For me, "normal" includes minority elements that are to be expected.
In that logic, it's "normal" for me that a small child wets the bed. It's not "normal" if that happens every night or even with regularity. But in your definition, the "normal" case would be that a small child does not wet the bed, therefore it would be ABNORMAL for that to happen. Even if it's a 5-year old and happened once as an accident.
The same thing here. While the MAJORITY of people may be heterosexual, that does not mean only heterosexuality is normal. It's the de-facto STANDARD, but normal and standard are different words for a reason.
Being homosexual is JUST as normal, and, in that venue, pedophilia is ALSO normal. Mark that i over and over said that i am glad there are laws and they should never ACT on that sexual orientation. But their attraction to children is, unfortunately, natural. In that context it's a "normal" sexual orientation that can't be dealt with.
Necrophilia is a fetish. Pedophilia is not. Thats what i'm trying to get across. The handling and the measures taken need to be different. Much as you can't forbid a person to be gay and expect him to change, you can't do that with pedophilia. They shouldn't be cornered and hated, but helped to overcome their nature instead.
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wigsplitz
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Not so much our definition of normal, maybe it's more due to the fact that I don't see humans as having any 'higher purpose' above any other animal. Our purpose is to reproduce and care for our children so that they can reproduce. Just because we've created this 'society' and can do other things with our lives, doesn't mean to me that we have any other purpose than to carry on our species. I look at things on a basic level, to me there really is no other level since there's no proof of such.
Can people exist and have such extreme alternate sexual preferences? Yes. And that's fine. But to me, it's not normal because it goes against what I see is our only REAL purpose (our only purpose that we can prove we have). So..biologically, naturally, NOT normal.
I guess we can agree to disagree! :)
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TerryVie
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well, but you say yourself, if THAT is our purpose, then it should be perfectly fine that boys and girls are sexually active the moment they CAN reproduce. That means a girl as young as 9 should freely have sex because she already had her period.
If you reduce it to basic animalistic criteria, that should be perfectly normal- which is what i claim all along. or by what reason, using your own argumentation, would it be "normal" that a young female specimen perfectly capable of becoming pregnant is not sexually active until many years later?
I am not sure if I understand you well, if you suggest chemical castration basically for all pedophiles. I think for most pedophiles the benefits of chemical castration are pretty low and the side effects outweigh benefits. But for some pedophiles it can be a good option.
I completely understand, and would never bash anyone for their sexual orientation. I just disagree that it's 'normal'. There's a reason why most men and women are sexually attracted to an 'appropriate' partner. Sexual attraction and who one may ACTUALLY have sex with will differ, of course, I'm just speaking on the base attraction here.
The purpose of sex is to reproduce, nothing more (yes, we've made it into more, and we do it for other reasons, but biologically speaking it's for reproduction). Obviously, if you're overwhelmingly compelled to have sex with someone/something that will not result in offspring then there's something wrong. BUT that's just on a biological level, I'm not saying that 'gays are wrong and shouldn't exist'. I'm just saying from a survival of the species point of view, it's a defect. And not normal.
What do weasels do? I looked and looked for any scrap of what you might be referring to and nothing points to anything remotely close to males raping newborn females (or whatever). All the information I found was actually contrary to that, mainly since weasels are solitary and a male and female wouldn't be living together, a sexually mature male shouldn't be present to molest the babies.
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TerryVie
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Yes, but the definition of normal goes a bit beyond "what is needed" in human society.
On the reproduction basis, anything starting from oral sex and anal sex to diverse fetishes like BDSM, exhibitionism, watersports or bondage are all not normal.
Now while many things MAY be specialized, the general consensus seems to be that human sexuality goes BEYOND mere reproduction.
As for weasels, yep, they are solitary. If the mother(who alone stays with the young) is out gathering food, a close-by male will sometimes enter the den and pre-impregnate the young females.
But the basic point i tried to make is that in mother nature, or what is defined as "normal" in reproduction, females will be mated with as soon and sometimes before they are ready to be impregnated, and sometimes against their will. So from that point of view, having sex with a 11-year old that already has her period would be more "normal" than oral sex with a consenting partner. That's why i'm trying to say it's not something tolerable, but not something unnatural or abnormal in the grander context. Placing it in a "unnatural and mentally ill"-area is equivalent to denying the problem, because to find an effective solution, you must first accept the problem for what it is.
Thats what i'm trying to say.
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Tottolotto
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Children are innocent, and don't understand sex. Pedophila is wrong, whether it is normal or not. Now many people will disagree with me here because they have never been sexually abused as a child, and simply don't understand it. Children get raped everyday, and normalizing pedophila is not going to help society.
Mustelids are fucking awesome.