Except people have a real hard time 'pulling the plug'. Many refuse (Terry Schaivo case, as an example). So, what's worse? An abortion or a person kept alive by artficial means?
What about a quadriplegic? Or a mentally retarded person? They can't live without help. Let's kill 'em!! I don't want to take care of them.
Your arguements don't make sense, why can't you just admit that an unborn baby is alive and it's 'wrong' or imprudent to interrupt that? You can still be OK with abortion but you don't need to make all kinds of excuses to bolster your position.
I think the divide between pros and cons is just that the silly arguements they both make. Why argue about when life starts? There's no answer to that (yet), so WHY bother? Can't you just be in favor of choice but still think it's not really right instead of having to try to justify it with 'facts' that aren't even 'facts'?
How can you be in favour of something without being able to justify it or have reasons to have opinions? It doesn't make sense to me that you could hold opinions WITHOUT bolstering them.
If you don't give reasons, THAT is when arguements STOP making sense.
I've already explained why I think an adult is different from an unborn child. I'm not explaining again.
How? Because you don't always HAVE to be 'right', it's not always a trial where you need to present evidence. Sometimes, yes, but not always. Sometimes you can just FEEL that something is wrong or right, not for you, not your 'bag', or something you like.... or whatever. There's not always a factual answer or any evidence, and to try to make 'evidence' out of things that can't even be proven in the least is stupid. STUPID. Why bother? All it does is end all productive discussion and make both parties angry, and no one gets anywhere, and the opposing side usually gets even more mad than before which only makes things WORSE for your side.
Take God....there's no tangible proof of or against. But people are religious....MANY, MANY peipole are. Does that get through to you? And imagine how it angers religious people when you spout off that 'there's no proof of God'....So, why bother? Why divide? Why make an arguement when being more peaceful and cooperative about it would benefit everyone instead of inciting anger?
I could not disagree more with your entire first paragraph. Firstly, just having a gut feeling is not grounds to believe anything. It goes against critical thinking. I don't think you can make a worthwhile arguement unless you can apply evidence to it, otherwise you are simply giving uninformed opinion. Uniformed opinion is worthless.
Secondly, basing an arguement on uninformed opinion is what is stupid, and counter-productive to discussion. How can a discussion be productive if neither side can submit evidence? They would simply be spouting rhetoric, and that isn't productive at all. To say that bringing order and evidence to such proceedings in fact makes a discussion LESS PRODUCTIVE is frankly ridiculous.
Then there's the second paragraph... I try not to get involved in religious discussion any more because it has few, if any, real world implications. I DO get involved in discussions about morality because I believe inciting anger is a fair sacrifice if that is what it takes to getting to an answer which could have some real world benefit. THAT is why I bother.
I believe it is wrong to make friends at the expense of finding truth.
But what about when there's no evidence? Are you saying it's pointless to question the possibilities without evidence?
Also, I don't understand the difference between a baby not being able to survive on it's own and a 30 year old women:S I don't think the fact that the baby is dependant on a human as opposed to machines is a distinction worth making...am I missing something?
Also, is the baby still not alive? Even if it's life isn't as complex as a fully grown baby, it still lives! So why isn't a murder?
And why do you think women have such a hard time aborting their baby?
:)
Why question possibilities without evidence? Without evidence we cannot reach an answer with any meaning, so why debate issues with no evidence.
I don't think there is a difference, that is my point. I don't think the distinction is worth making. That is why I also don't think switching off a life support machine is murder. That is why the law is consistent between the two.
I don't believe an unborn child BEFORE the time it could survive outside the mother's body is a life, because it couldn't survive if it was born.
Women who abort often feeling depressed about it has nothing to do with it being murder or not. Maybe they believe it is murder, and they believe they have done something wrong, I don't know. But just because they might believe it is murder doesn't mean I do. If I believed abortion was murder, I'd be against it.
How the fuck do you know that 'often' women who abort don't feel as if it's murder? How many abortions have you had, or provided? How many women have you counseled pre- or post-abortion?
Have you ever even viewed pre-abortion paperwork and questionaires? Didn't think so.
Have you hung out in abortion clinic waiting rooms, and talked to anyone there? Didn't think so.
Why are you so thick that you can't feel that it's 'wrong' to at least some extent.....yet not prohibit others from making the choice? Your attitude about it sucks and it's so uninformed. I guarantee you if you were ever in the spot where your girlfriend wanted to abort your baby (if you ever manage to land one), that you'd be so carefree about it.
Unless you're some kind of serious psychopath, basically everyone thinks it's wrong, yet can still accept that it's a choice. You may not think so untill you're there in that spot, but trust me, when you ARE, you think differently about it, you feel 'wrong' about it. Or unsure, at the very least.
You are, for once, right. I don't get it. I don't get it because you refuse to explain in any way involving either fact or interpretation of fact. You seem to think that unevidenced opinion is as valuable as the logical interpretation of evidenced fact, which I cannot agree with.
I also don't get why you think calling me an "immature idiot" without an explanation would lead any reasonable person to think that it is anyone other than you who is the "immature idiot" in this discussion.
You're not even gettting the point. The point is, sometimes there is NO evidnce. Like with abortion or God. There's NO evidence or conclusion as to when life begins, so why bother trying to use it as an arguement? That only flys when you're preaching to the choir. You have to understand how your 'enemy' thinks and get at them in a productive way.
There was no 'religious discussion' going on, it was a fucking example. Get it? Many people believe in God, and many don't. There's no proof for either. So why try to argue with made up 'facts'.....or by insulting people by calling them stupid for believing in 'some crazy book'. You have a lot to learn.
You're assuming I'm applying this to everyting, and I'm not. Of course, much of the time there IS proof, and it should be used to educate, persuade, etc. But times when there isn't, and especially when it's a sensitive subject, why try to be 'right' when there is no FUCKING right answer?? And by trying to be 'right' just pises off the very people you need to convince.
I know there was no religious discussion going on, and I wasn't trying to instigate one or take part in one. But if you mention a "fucking example", I'm allowed to comment on it, criticise it and extrapolate aren't I? In order to support my point? So I did.
But there IS evidence. You just have to interpret it with logic. All research requires interpretation to apply it to the real world. We have to try and make the most logical interpretations possible. I never insulted anyone for believing in "some crazy book". If I ever did, it was a long time ago, when maybe I was less mature. Everyone was once less mature.
If you accept that there is evidence (which I do), it just needs interpretation, then there IS a right answer, or at least a "more correct" answer, because nothing is ever "proven right" in science.
I don't care if it pisses them off. I care about what I believe to be the most correct answer being heard, even if it isn't listened to. Sensitivity of the issue doesn't phase me; I don't think it is important. If people are too scared to listen to an alternative viewpoint, then they risk losing out.
I have to disagree that there's any evidence or concensus on when life begins. If anything, to me, it seems more logical that it begins at conception for the reasons I stated.
It does matter how you approach certain subjects, it's not that people won't listen because you've pissed them off, it's because you have to know how to get inside their head. It's psychology, you can make anyone do anything if you approach it right. And even make them think it was their idea to begin with if you're real good.
OK, well, then....let me give you MY opinion on when life begins. At conception. Why? It's the most logical to me. Once the sperm and egg join, YOU are created. Everything about you is there.
If conception was random and you became a distinct individual at a later time in the womb, then my opinion would be different. But since YOU are YOU, and everyting about you is determined at conception, I believe the only logical answer is that your life began then. If not then, then when? When did you become 'more' you? Never. Your DNA never changed, your eye color, and skin color and every other damn genetic thing about you was determined at conception.
It's completely illogical to me to think that just because a fetus can't survive outside the womb that it isn't 'alive' or doesn't count. How is that logical? If left alone, it would be fine and grow into a being that would live outside the womb. Disturbing that growth is 'wrong'. Not wrong in teh sense that you shouldn't be able to make that choice, but wrong in the sense that you're purposely terminating a living thing that would've thrived if left alone.
Do You Think Abortion Is ok?
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Except people have a real hard time 'pulling the plug'. Many refuse (Terry Schaivo case, as an example). So, what's worse? An abortion or a person kept alive by artficial means?
What about a quadriplegic? Or a mentally retarded person? They can't live without help. Let's kill 'em!! I don't want to take care of them.
Your arguements don't make sense, why can't you just admit that an unborn baby is alive and it's 'wrong' or imprudent to interrupt that? You can still be OK with abortion but you don't need to make all kinds of excuses to bolster your position.
I think the divide between pros and cons is just that the silly arguements they both make. Why argue about when life starts? There's no answer to that (yet), so WHY bother? Can't you just be in favor of choice but still think it's not really right instead of having to try to justify it with 'facts' that aren't even 'facts'?
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dom180
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How can you be in favour of something without being able to justify it or have reasons to have opinions? It doesn't make sense to me that you could hold opinions WITHOUT bolstering them.
If you don't give reasons, THAT is when arguements STOP making sense.
I've already explained why I think an adult is different from an unborn child. I'm not explaining again.
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wigsplitz
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How? Because you don't always HAVE to be 'right', it's not always a trial where you need to present evidence. Sometimes, yes, but not always. Sometimes you can just FEEL that something is wrong or right, not for you, not your 'bag', or something you like.... or whatever. There's not always a factual answer or any evidence, and to try to make 'evidence' out of things that can't even be proven in the least is stupid. STUPID. Why bother? All it does is end all productive discussion and make both parties angry, and no one gets anywhere, and the opposing side usually gets even more mad than before which only makes things WORSE for your side.
Take God....there's no tangible proof of or against. But people are religious....MANY, MANY peipole are. Does that get through to you? And imagine how it angers religious people when you spout off that 'there's no proof of God'....So, why bother? Why divide? Why make an arguement when being more peaceful and cooperative about it would benefit everyone instead of inciting anger?
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dom180
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I could not disagree more with your entire first paragraph. Firstly, just having a gut feeling is not grounds to believe anything. It goes against critical thinking. I don't think you can make a worthwhile arguement unless you can apply evidence to it, otherwise you are simply giving uninformed opinion. Uniformed opinion is worthless.
Secondly, basing an arguement on uninformed opinion is what is stupid, and counter-productive to discussion. How can a discussion be productive if neither side can submit evidence? They would simply be spouting rhetoric, and that isn't productive at all. To say that bringing order and evidence to such proceedings in fact makes a discussion LESS PRODUCTIVE is frankly ridiculous.
Then there's the second paragraph... I try not to get involved in religious discussion any more because it has few, if any, real world implications. I DO get involved in discussions about morality because I believe inciting anger is a fair sacrifice if that is what it takes to getting to an answer which could have some real world benefit. THAT is why I bother.
I believe it is wrong to make friends at the expense of finding truth.
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wigsplitz
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But what about when there's no evidence? Are you saying it's pointless to question the possibilities without evidence?
Also, I don't understand the difference between a baby not being able to survive on it's own and a 30 year old women:S I don't think the fact that the baby is dependant on a human as opposed to machines is a distinction worth making...am I missing something?
Also, is the baby still not alive? Even if it's life isn't as complex as a fully grown baby, it still lives! So why isn't a murder?
And why do you think women have such a hard time aborting their baby?
:)
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dom180
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Why question possibilities without evidence? Without evidence we cannot reach an answer with any meaning, so why debate issues with no evidence.
I don't think there is a difference, that is my point. I don't think the distinction is worth making. That is why I also don't think switching off a life support machine is murder. That is why the law is consistent between the two.
I don't believe an unborn child BEFORE the time it could survive outside the mother's body is a life, because it couldn't survive if it was born.
Women who abort often feeling depressed about it has nothing to do with it being murder or not. Maybe they believe it is murder, and they believe they have done something wrong, I don't know. But just because they might believe it is murder doesn't mean I do. If I believed abortion was murder, I'd be against it.
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How the fuck do you know that 'often' women who abort don't feel as if it's murder? How many abortions have you had, or provided? How many women have you counseled pre- or post-abortion?
Have you ever even viewed pre-abortion paperwork and questionaires? Didn't think so.
Have you hung out in abortion clinic waiting rooms, and talked to anyone there? Didn't think so.
Why are you so thick that you can't feel that it's 'wrong' to at least some extent.....yet not prohibit others from making the choice? Your attitude about it sucks and it's so uninformed. I guarantee you if you were ever in the spot where your girlfriend wanted to abort your baby (if you ever manage to land one), that you'd be so carefree about it.
Unless you're some kind of serious psychopath, basically everyone thinks it's wrong, yet can still accept that it's a choice. You may not think so untill you're there in that spot, but trust me, when you ARE, you think differently about it, you feel 'wrong' about it. Or unsure, at the very least.
And that's why you're an immature idiot, and don't get it. Nuff said.
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dom180
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You are, for once, right. I don't get it. I don't get it because you refuse to explain in any way involving either fact or interpretation of fact. You seem to think that unevidenced opinion is as valuable as the logical interpretation of evidenced fact, which I cannot agree with.
I also don't get why you think calling me an "immature idiot" without an explanation would lead any reasonable person to think that it is anyone other than you who is the "immature idiot" in this discussion.
You're not even gettting the point. The point is, sometimes there is NO evidnce. Like with abortion or God. There's NO evidence or conclusion as to when life begins, so why bother trying to use it as an arguement? That only flys when you're preaching to the choir. You have to understand how your 'enemy' thinks and get at them in a productive way.
There was no 'religious discussion' going on, it was a fucking example. Get it? Many people believe in God, and many don't. There's no proof for either. So why try to argue with made up 'facts'.....or by insulting people by calling them stupid for believing in 'some crazy book'. You have a lot to learn.
You're assuming I'm applying this to everyting, and I'm not. Of course, much of the time there IS proof, and it should be used to educate, persuade, etc. But times when there isn't, and especially when it's a sensitive subject, why try to be 'right' when there is no FUCKING right answer?? And by trying to be 'right' just pises off the very people you need to convince.
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dom180
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I know there was no religious discussion going on, and I wasn't trying to instigate one or take part in one. But if you mention a "fucking example", I'm allowed to comment on it, criticise it and extrapolate aren't I? In order to support my point? So I did.
But there IS evidence. You just have to interpret it with logic. All research requires interpretation to apply it to the real world. We have to try and make the most logical interpretations possible. I never insulted anyone for believing in "some crazy book". If I ever did, it was a long time ago, when maybe I was less mature. Everyone was once less mature.
If you accept that there is evidence (which I do), it just needs interpretation, then there IS a right answer, or at least a "more correct" answer, because nothing is ever "proven right" in science.
I don't care if it pisses them off. I care about what I believe to be the most correct answer being heard, even if it isn't listened to. Sensitivity of the issue doesn't phase me; I don't think it is important. If people are too scared to listen to an alternative viewpoint, then they risk losing out.
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wigsplitz
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I have to disagree that there's any evidence or concensus on when life begins. If anything, to me, it seems more logical that it begins at conception for the reasons I stated.
It does matter how you approach certain subjects, it's not that people won't listen because you've pissed them off, it's because you have to know how to get inside their head. It's psychology, you can make anyone do anything if you approach it right. And even make them think it was their idea to begin with if you're real good.
OK, well, then....let me give you MY opinion on when life begins. At conception. Why? It's the most logical to me. Once the sperm and egg join, YOU are created. Everything about you is there.
If conception was random and you became a distinct individual at a later time in the womb, then my opinion would be different. But since YOU are YOU, and everyting about you is determined at conception, I believe the only logical answer is that your life began then. If not then, then when? When did you become 'more' you? Never. Your DNA never changed, your eye color, and skin color and every other damn genetic thing about you was determined at conception.
It's completely illogical to me to think that just because a fetus can't survive outside the womb that it isn't 'alive' or doesn't count. How is that logical? If left alone, it would be fine and grow into a being that would live outside the womb. Disturbing that growth is 'wrong'. Not wrong in teh sense that you shouldn't be able to make that choice, but wrong in the sense that you're purposely terminating a living thing that would've thrived if left alone.