Yes, we all believe that our truth is the truth. But the way we handle other people's truths are different. Some people attempt to accept other people's truths, and other people simply try to convince others of his own truth. It's a matter of how open-minded different people are. What I'm trying to say is, you're often unable to see what other users see as the truth- you're often incredibly defensive of your version of the truth, and I think that you could learn a lot by relaxing, and giving up some of your pride.
That being said, I believe that we're all linked to the slave-owner in some way. You can't deny the fact that you and I are both, in some way, blinded by our pride. You're evidently very proud of being a man, since you make generalizations about women (as you said, you believe your gender to be superior to mine). I'm proud of other things about myself, which makes me biased as well. It's impossible not to be biased, since we're all human here (as far as I know). But we can all do our best not to judge people based on our own selfish pride and generalizations.
I think there is only one truth, but we as humans can never really know what that truth is. I can't necessarily see the whole truth, and neither can you. That's why we need to be able to swallow our sense of pride, and learn to take each other's truths into account. I believe that men and women are equal- I have been trying to see the world in terms of your truth, but I haven't been able to. I can't see a way in which a person's merit can be judged solely on which hormones and organs they happen to have. My truth may well still be wrong, but I've tried to accept your truth, and it just has not worked for me so far. Perhaps, if you tried to accept my truth, you could see a new way of thinking about the world; and if you can't see the way that I see, then it just means that we've got truths that can't work together. Again, I see myself as your equal, and I see the more emotional user of this site as equals as well. Because for all I know, their truths are more correct than mine. I may disagree with them, but maybe there's something I'm not seeing.
And the third type of person engages in a debate to prove their poing, wanting to know if their truth is more accurate than the other debater's truth due to debating about it.
I am relaxed when I debate. A lot of people seem to think I'm raging at the screen when I'm in a debate, I assure you the opposite.
I believe my version of the truth is truth, so I challenge their version of truth with my version of truth, that way we communicate to figure out which one of our truths are more accurate.
In some senses, yes. Although, the whole gender thing is something that my pride isn't a part of. I try to make it clear that I am not saying that "I" am better than all, or even most females in the world, just that I share the same gender with the group of people that have, and stil do, achieve more in our species' progression. I never claimed that I am something to envy just for my gender, just that the group I belong to is something to envy.
I used to be someone you can say is a feminist, so I am not that biased, just the reasons for acknowledging the male gender as a group is better was more understandable. I used to argue just as much as I do now about how women are superior. That all changed when I took an interest in the subject, got told by someone to look up the issue more before I comment, then realized I was wrong.
I think we can see the whole truth. When it comes to truth, it is black and white. It is true or it isn't, there is no inbetween unless something has been misunderstood.
I can't see it as truths, I see it as opinions, just like what I consider the truth to be an opinion unless people are unable to counter my opinion that I believe to be fact. There is only one truth, just different opinions of what the truth is, that doesn't change what the truth actually is, though.
I believe the male gender as a group are better, and that males have the potential to be greater individually if they are educated in ways that fit their energy levels and interests at a young age that works towards their progression.
Science states that the male brain and female brain are different, which they are. Males have more grey matter, and women have more white matter. Grey matter is what makes us intelligent, and since men have more naturally, if trained in the way that fits their progression needs, I believe they can do better the majority of the time.
I still firmply believe that the only reason women have as much use as they have today is due to the contributions males have made in technology to society that eneables women to work just as much as males, that they rely on technology to work as well as males.
I have accepted your truth once upon a time, it used to be my own truth, but I was corrected, and the logic behind why I was wrong was truth.
I definetly don't see the emotional>logic people's truths being anywhere compared to those that think mainly with logic. Truth is logic, realized by logic, and so on. Emotions can corrupt a truth.
In that case, our truths/opinions aren't compatible. If you don't believe that I have the same intellectual capacity that you do, then that is simply what you see as the truth. Something tells me that I will never get you to see things my way, and I assure you, you'll never get me to see the way that you do. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Then let's discuss why what we see as truth differs, and come to a conclusion. I have seen things your way before, before I have what I see as truths now.
By the way, earlier you mentioned that men were more intelligent because they had more gray matter than women. I read up a bit on the matter, and found that professor Richard Haier, who led the experiments done on male and female brains, said, “These findings suggest that human evolution has created two different types of brains designed for equally intelligent behavior." Basically, though the male and female brains are wired for two separate types of thinking, the two different roles are equally intelligent. I used another article to cross-reference this information, which read, "Researchers stressed that just because the two sexes think differently, this does not affect intellectual performance." and, "Scientists find it very interesting that while men and women use two very different activity centers and neurological pathways, men and women perform equally well on broad measures of cognitive ability, such as intelligence tests." Did you do your research?
It would depends on when those articles or statements were made. Saying women are inferior to males in any sense of intelligence gets a bad reaction. A math teacher was fired for stating boys are better at math. Unfortunatly, that is the way the world is. I'm looking more in to the subject, I haven't read it up in a year or so. You have to remember that even if men were superior in intelligence, society would never allow it to be seem, nor stated. So they go for "they're both equal".
Secondly. If males and females are as smart as eachother, that would still make males superior. They both have the same intelligence, but only males have superior strength.
I have no doubt that in different areas, women have equal performance, such as women are equally as good at language as men are at math. But, we need to see which one of the two that each brain is more better at for usefulness in the society that was made after our brains were. So do the rules and intelligence our society go by run better with male brain or female brain?
I think that it is quite a clear indication that if one group has more of something that enhances their ability to do something, and the other group has something else that enhances something else, they aren't going to be the same in every subject.
I would have to read more in to that psychologists statements. Did he give any information that shows how they are equally smarter?
So far these science links state that males are better at science, math (problem solving). What intelligence is more required in today's society, the intelligence that gives better mathamatics, better science, and more reasonable and logical thinking without more emotion, or the intelligence that isn't equiped to do as well as the other in maths (problem solving and science, etc? White matter supports multitasking and things such as language, which I believe women excel more at. However, when it comes to progressing things, male brains are more equaiped, and society shows this with all the great men in the past and present that progress out technology, science, etc.
Coiuld you link those pages, I would like to see them, too.
Thanks.
Your first statement is what bothers me. You say that it would be politically correct to say that they're equal, and so you think it's implied that men probably are? I see why you might think that, but you have to remember that this is scientific and medical evidence. The doctors and professors involved in the study would not have themselves quoted saying faulty information solely to be "politically correct," it would go against their credibility and their pride.
Secondly, is strength really how we judge a person? If we were to somehow get Hitler and Martin Luther King Jr. to fight to the death, and Hitler won, would we say, "Oh, Hitler must be the superior person." It might have been different a couple hundred years ago, but in this day and age, strength doesn't count nearly as much as intelligence and the ability to function in society.
Neither brain is more useful to society- like the articles said, each brain was built by evolution for a certain, equally intelligent, equally important task. We're not debating with math right now, we're debating with language. Though our society does seem to value math and science more, language, art, and emotion are equally as important in a spiritual way as well as a mental way. The world isn't just about progress, progress, progress. I know that you don't like emotion, since it dissuades the truth (and you are very correct). But that's only from a debating standpoint. What would the world be if we couldn't feel? If we could never get fully, emotionally invested? If we didn't love our children as much as we do, chances are, a lot of them would end up dead and unappreciated.
I think the point I'm trying to make is, you see the world as being clockwork- we have to keep moving, and getting better technology. I'm trying to tell you (for lack of a better phrase) to slow down and smell the roses. There's a different side to life that you're just not acknowledging.
I'd write more too, but I also have places to be. I read the same articles that you did, plus these:
I would of replied last night, but my internet was being an asshole.
I don't see women inferior to me by default.
I do treat people how I want to be treated. I respect them (as an opposing debater) and read what they have to say and reply to all of the imortant parts, and if asked to reply to a specific part, I do.
I have to go for a bit, so I'll reply to the second part soon. I had to rush the top part, unfortunatly.
Isn't that what we just did? My belief is that women and men are equal, that we all have different versions of the truth, and my conclusion is that we're different people with different opinions, and maybe we can never see eye to eye. Your belief is that men are naturally superior to women, that your truth is the truth, and that as of now, we have no conclusion.
No, we more so discussed the methods I express what I believe to be facts, not why we see them as truths.
I'll start the debate off. What makes the female gender equal to the male gender?
Before we begin, I feel like we've already had many, many debates that will likely resolve in the same way as this one, usually with you as an anon. Is it really necessary to go over the same points again (especially ones that we just outlined in our previous discussion) on a thread that has almost nothing to do with gender equality?
If you still think this discussion to be necessary, then here's my general rule of thumb; treat everyone like you, as a human being, want to be treated. Because that's what we are- humans. And that's what everyone says that they're striving for, masculinists and feminists alike. Neither group is particularly effective in working for that goal, but that is the ultimatum. Every human treated well, regardless of intelligence, race, gender, or creed. On the off chance that you are right, and men are somehow superior to women, that still doesn't change the fact that every human on this earth has the right to be treated as a human. That means basic respect for a human being. Even if the person that you're talking to is a total and complete jackass, you are still obligated to treat them in a civil manner and see them as an equal.
Do you have IIN enemies?
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Yes, we all believe that our truth is the truth. But the way we handle other people's truths are different. Some people attempt to accept other people's truths, and other people simply try to convince others of his own truth. It's a matter of how open-minded different people are. What I'm trying to say is, you're often unable to see what other users see as the truth- you're often incredibly defensive of your version of the truth, and I think that you could learn a lot by relaxing, and giving up some of your pride.
That being said, I believe that we're all linked to the slave-owner in some way. You can't deny the fact that you and I are both, in some way, blinded by our pride. You're evidently very proud of being a man, since you make generalizations about women (as you said, you believe your gender to be superior to mine). I'm proud of other things about myself, which makes me biased as well. It's impossible not to be biased, since we're all human here (as far as I know). But we can all do our best not to judge people based on our own selfish pride and generalizations.
I think there is only one truth, but we as humans can never really know what that truth is. I can't necessarily see the whole truth, and neither can you. That's why we need to be able to swallow our sense of pride, and learn to take each other's truths into account. I believe that men and women are equal- I have been trying to see the world in terms of your truth, but I haven't been able to. I can't see a way in which a person's merit can be judged solely on which hormones and organs they happen to have. My truth may well still be wrong, but I've tried to accept your truth, and it just has not worked for me so far. Perhaps, if you tried to accept my truth, you could see a new way of thinking about the world; and if you can't see the way that I see, then it just means that we've got truths that can't work together. Again, I see myself as your equal, and I see the more emotional user of this site as equals as well. Because for all I know, their truths are more correct than mine. I may disagree with them, but maybe there's something I'm not seeing.
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And the third type of person engages in a debate to prove their poing, wanting to know if their truth is more accurate than the other debater's truth due to debating about it.
I am relaxed when I debate. A lot of people seem to think I'm raging at the screen when I'm in a debate, I assure you the opposite.
I believe my version of the truth is truth, so I challenge their version of truth with my version of truth, that way we communicate to figure out which one of our truths are more accurate.
In some senses, yes. Although, the whole gender thing is something that my pride isn't a part of. I try to make it clear that I am not saying that "I" am better than all, or even most females in the world, just that I share the same gender with the group of people that have, and stil do, achieve more in our species' progression. I never claimed that I am something to envy just for my gender, just that the group I belong to is something to envy.
I used to be someone you can say is a feminist, so I am not that biased, just the reasons for acknowledging the male gender as a group is better was more understandable. I used to argue just as much as I do now about how women are superior. That all changed when I took an interest in the subject, got told by someone to look up the issue more before I comment, then realized I was wrong.
I think we can see the whole truth. When it comes to truth, it is black and white. It is true or it isn't, there is no inbetween unless something has been misunderstood.
I can't see it as truths, I see it as opinions, just like what I consider the truth to be an opinion unless people are unable to counter my opinion that I believe to be fact. There is only one truth, just different opinions of what the truth is, that doesn't change what the truth actually is, though.
I believe the male gender as a group are better, and that males have the potential to be greater individually if they are educated in ways that fit their energy levels and interests at a young age that works towards their progression.
Science states that the male brain and female brain are different, which they are. Males have more grey matter, and women have more white matter. Grey matter is what makes us intelligent, and since men have more naturally, if trained in the way that fits their progression needs, I believe they can do better the majority of the time.
I still firmply believe that the only reason women have as much use as they have today is due to the contributions males have made in technology to society that eneables women to work just as much as males, that they rely on technology to work as well as males.
I have accepted your truth once upon a time, it used to be my own truth, but I was corrected, and the logic behind why I was wrong was truth.
I definetly don't see the emotional>logic people's truths being anywhere compared to those that think mainly with logic. Truth is logic, realized by logic, and so on. Emotions can corrupt a truth.
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In that case, our truths/opinions aren't compatible. If you don't believe that I have the same intellectual capacity that you do, then that is simply what you see as the truth. Something tells me that I will never get you to see things my way, and I assure you, you'll never get me to see the way that you do. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Then let's discuss why what we see as truth differs, and come to a conclusion. I have seen things your way before, before I have what I see as truths now.
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By the way, earlier you mentioned that men were more intelligent because they had more gray matter than women. I read up a bit on the matter, and found that professor Richard Haier, who led the experiments done on male and female brains, said, “These findings suggest that human evolution has created two different types of brains designed for equally intelligent behavior." Basically, though the male and female brains are wired for two separate types of thinking, the two different roles are equally intelligent. I used another article to cross-reference this information, which read, "Researchers stressed that just because the two sexes think differently, this does not affect intellectual performance." and, "Scientists find it very interesting that while men and women use two very different activity centers and neurological pathways, men and women perform equally well on broad measures of cognitive ability, such as intelligence tests." Did you do your research?
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It would depends on when those articles or statements were made. Saying women are inferior to males in any sense of intelligence gets a bad reaction. A math teacher was fired for stating boys are better at math. Unfortunatly, that is the way the world is. I'm looking more in to the subject, I haven't read it up in a year or so. You have to remember that even if men were superior in intelligence, society would never allow it to be seem, nor stated. So they go for "they're both equal".
Secondly. If males and females are as smart as eachother, that would still make males superior. They both have the same intelligence, but only males have superior strength.
I have no doubt that in different areas, women have equal performance, such as women are equally as good at language as men are at math. But, we need to see which one of the two that each brain is more better at for usefulness in the society that was made after our brains were. So do the rules and intelligence our society go by run better with male brain or female brain?
http://socyberty.com/society/men-vs-women-who-is-more-intelligent-2/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050121100142.htm
I think that it is quite a clear indication that if one group has more of something that enhances their ability to do something, and the other group has something else that enhances something else, they aren't going to be the same in every subject.
I would have to read more in to that psychologists statements. Did he give any information that shows how they are equally smarter?
So far these science links state that males are better at science, math (problem solving). What intelligence is more required in today's society, the intelligence that gives better mathamatics, better science, and more reasonable and logical thinking without more emotion, or the intelligence that isn't equiped to do as well as the other in maths (problem solving and science, etc? White matter supports multitasking and things such as language, which I believe women excel more at. However, when it comes to progressing things, male brains are more equaiped, and society shows this with all the great men in the past and present that progress out technology, science, etc.
Coiuld you link those pages, I would like to see them, too.
Thanks.
I would say more, but I'm hurrying.
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Your first statement is what bothers me. You say that it would be politically correct to say that they're equal, and so you think it's implied that men probably are? I see why you might think that, but you have to remember that this is scientific and medical evidence. The doctors and professors involved in the study would not have themselves quoted saying faulty information solely to be "politically correct," it would go against their credibility and their pride.
Secondly, is strength really how we judge a person? If we were to somehow get Hitler and Martin Luther King Jr. to fight to the death, and Hitler won, would we say, "Oh, Hitler must be the superior person." It might have been different a couple hundred years ago, but in this day and age, strength doesn't count nearly as much as intelligence and the ability to function in society.
Neither brain is more useful to society- like the articles said, each brain was built by evolution for a certain, equally intelligent, equally important task. We're not debating with math right now, we're debating with language. Though our society does seem to value math and science more, language, art, and emotion are equally as important in a spiritual way as well as a mental way. The world isn't just about progress, progress, progress. I know that you don't like emotion, since it dissuades the truth (and you are very correct). But that's only from a debating standpoint. What would the world be if we couldn't feel? If we could never get fully, emotionally invested? If we didn't love our children as much as we do, chances are, a lot of them would end up dead and unappreciated.
I think the point I'm trying to make is, you see the world as being clockwork- we have to keep moving, and getting better technology. I'm trying to tell you (for lack of a better phrase) to slow down and smell the roses. There's a different side to life that you're just not acknowledging.
I'd write more too, but I also have places to be. I read the same articles that you did, plus these:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6849058/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/genders-really-do-think-differently/#.UArI9HDavmd
http://www.livescience.com/3808-men-women-differently.html
Thanks.
I would of replied last night, but my internet was being an asshole.
I don't see women inferior to me by default.
I do treat people how I want to be treated. I respect them (as an opposing debater) and read what they have to say and reply to all of the imortant parts, and if asked to reply to a specific part, I do.
I have to go for a bit, so I'll reply to the second part soon. I had to rush the top part, unfortunatly.
Isn't that what we just did? My belief is that women and men are equal, that we all have different versions of the truth, and my conclusion is that we're different people with different opinions, and maybe we can never see eye to eye. Your belief is that men are naturally superior to women, that your truth is the truth, and that as of now, we have no conclusion.
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No, we more so discussed the methods I express what I believe to be facts, not why we see them as truths.
I'll start the debate off. What makes the female gender equal to the male gender?
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Before we begin, I feel like we've already had many, many debates that will likely resolve in the same way as this one, usually with you as an anon. Is it really necessary to go over the same points again (especially ones that we just outlined in our previous discussion) on a thread that has almost nothing to do with gender equality?
If you still think this discussion to be necessary, then here's my general rule of thumb; treat everyone like you, as a human being, want to be treated. Because that's what we are- humans. And that's what everyone says that they're striving for, masculinists and feminists alike. Neither group is particularly effective in working for that goal, but that is the ultimatum. Every human treated well, regardless of intelligence, race, gender, or creed. On the off chance that you are right, and men are somehow superior to women, that still doesn't change the fact that every human on this earth has the right to be treated as a human. That means basic respect for a human being. Even if the person that you're talking to is a total and complete jackass, you are still obligated to treat them in a civil manner and see them as an equal.