I don't understand how people can't believe in free will and not believe in responsibility for actions. Do people blame things they do on something else? What?
This is called Determinism. The thought process is as follows:
Every process in nature, whether it be a falling rock or a chemical reaction is constrained and defined by the laws of nature. So if everything can be explained by an arbitrary set of rules, which apply universally, then this should also apply to our brains. It therefore stands to reason that if one constructed a situation forcing a decision from an individual, then that decision in that particular situation if rewindable/repeatable would always be the same.
As such we may think that we have free will, because we act upon our own deliberation, but the very process of our deliberation would have followed the laws of nature and would as such haven been predictable if the laws were known to a great enough extent.
You therefore have a "free" will.
Under this view point an individual would still have to take responsibility for his actions, as he would be prone to repeat them, but he did not really do them out of his own free will.
If that theory was right crime and "bad" things wouldn't exist. The problem is that you can test things with identical results. You cant do that with humans because we have these amazing things called brains. Look at my logic below and tell me what you think.
That theory says nothing on crime and 'bad' things. There is no reason why a deterministic viewpoint would preclude crime. All the theory says that every process in nature follows the laws of nature and the outcome is therefore 'pre'determined and you have no real influence (because your actions are also 'pre'determined).
I proposed a (thought) experiment which could answer some questions as to how we develop. Good luck getting that past an ethics comittee.
Not sure why I said anything about crime. That was silly.
How about this. Brain development may follow laws. However thought processes don't. That's why people in the same circumstances will have different views beliefs and behaviors. That is their free will. I think that makes sense. Yes, let's go with that.
As far as we know everything follows laws. Us not knowing the laws does not make them any less valid ;)
The real question is whether these laws allow for free will or not, or even what we can consider free will to be.
"That's why people in the same circumstances will have different views beliefs and behaviors. That is their free will. I think that makes sense. Yes, let's go with that."
People have different opinions because they are different because their surroundings were different :P
If you are interested in the topic I would suggest starting with wiki and working from there.
Lastly I just want to say that Determinism does not necessarily eliminate free will. Philosophy, eh?
I'm not sure I understand your logic... A falling rock under the same circumstances will always fall in the same place (agree) as will the same chemical reaction always yield the same results under the same controlled environment (correct). No human brain is the same correct(Question)? Will any human being do the same thing under the same circumstances?
A brain's development also follows certain laws, we just don't know them yet. So if we follow through with Determinism, then the brain itself is the result of a long chain of events, which themselves were also 'pre'-determined. In the world of Determinism everything, bar random quantum events, was pretty much determined to happen from the moment the universe started its existence. This is, however, not the same as the concept of destiny.
And no, no "any human being" will not do the same thing under the same circumstances as not all humans are identical.
Food for thought:
If you were to take 100 identical feti (clones) and let them mature under laboratory conditions and each foetus and later child were to receive the exact same stimuli at the exact same time, then I'm fairly sure their brain structure would also be identical. Their decisions, if placed in identical situations should therefore also be identical.
I think this whole argument is flawed. Saying brain development follows certain laws but we don't know them is dumb. That's like saying anything about anything and then just saying we just don't know how to prove it yet...
What Determinism does is extrapolate empirical data to a generalised concept. We know that all observed processes follow certain laws and principles, as such any combination of these processes would also follow these same principles and laws. Therefore, assuming, that the brain consists of the same stuff as the rest of the world it must in its entirety (including its development) follow the same laws and principles and would be, if those laws and principle were known, be predictable.
Of course as is always the case in philosophy there are many different variations of Determinism.
My personal opinion on pretty much all philosophy is: "If I cannot prove it and I cannot use it, what's the ****ing point? There are a few interesting concepts though."
Personally I think that Determinism makes more sense than spiritualism or any of the religions at least ^^
Do you believe in free will?
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I don't understand how people can't believe in free will and not believe in responsibility for actions. Do people blame things they do on something else? What?
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malkiot
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This is called Determinism. The thought process is as follows:
Every process in nature, whether it be a falling rock or a chemical reaction is constrained and defined by the laws of nature. So if everything can be explained by an arbitrary set of rules, which apply universally, then this should also apply to our brains. It therefore stands to reason that if one constructed a situation forcing a decision from an individual, then that decision in that particular situation if rewindable/repeatable would always be the same.
As such we may think that we have free will, because we act upon our own deliberation, but the very process of our deliberation would have followed the laws of nature and would as such haven been predictable if the laws were known to a great enough extent.
You therefore have a "free" will.
Under this view point an individual would still have to take responsibility for his actions, as he would be prone to repeat them, but he did not really do them out of his own free will.
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dontgetfatdietingsucks
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dontgetfatdietingsucks
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If that theory was right crime and "bad" things wouldn't exist. The problem is that you can test things with identical results. You cant do that with humans because we have these amazing things called brains. Look at my logic below and tell me what you think.
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malkiot
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That theory says nothing on crime and 'bad' things. There is no reason why a deterministic viewpoint would preclude crime. All the theory says that every process in nature follows the laws of nature and the outcome is therefore 'pre'determined and you have no real influence (because your actions are also 'pre'determined).
I proposed a (thought) experiment which could answer some questions as to how we develop. Good luck getting that past an ethics comittee.
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dontgetfatdietingsucks
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Not sure why I said anything about crime. That was silly.
How about this. Brain development may follow laws. However thought processes don't. That's why people in the same circumstances will have different views beliefs and behaviors. That is their free will. I think that makes sense. Yes, let's go with that.
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malkiot
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As far as we know everything follows laws. Us not knowing the laws does not make them any less valid ;)
The real question is whether these laws allow for free will or not, or even what we can consider free will to be.
"That's why people in the same circumstances will have different views beliefs and behaviors. That is their free will. I think that makes sense. Yes, let's go with that."
People have different opinions because they are different because their surroundings were different :P
If you are interested in the topic I would suggest starting with wiki and working from there.
Lastly I just want to say that Determinism does not necessarily eliminate free will. Philosophy, eh?
--
dontgetfatdietingsucks
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I don't know. I just feel confrontational lately. So sure.
I'm not sure I understand your logic... A falling rock under the same circumstances will always fall in the same place (agree) as will the same chemical reaction always yield the same results under the same controlled environment (correct). No human brain is the same correct(Question)? Will any human being do the same thing under the same circumstances?
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malkiot
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A brain's development also follows certain laws, we just don't know them yet. So if we follow through with Determinism, then the brain itself is the result of a long chain of events, which themselves were also 'pre'-determined. In the world of Determinism everything, bar random quantum events, was pretty much determined to happen from the moment the universe started its existence. This is, however, not the same as the concept of destiny.
And no, no "any human being" will not do the same thing under the same circumstances as not all humans are identical.
Food for thought:
If you were to take 100 identical feti (clones) and let them mature under laboratory conditions and each foetus and later child were to receive the exact same stimuli at the exact same time, then I'm fairly sure their brain structure would also be identical. Their decisions, if placed in identical situations should therefore also be identical.
This would make for an interesting experiment.
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dontgetfatdietingsucks
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I think this whole argument is flawed. Saying brain development follows certain laws but we don't know them is dumb. That's like saying anything about anything and then just saying we just don't know how to prove it yet...
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malkiot
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What Determinism does is extrapolate empirical data to a generalised concept. We know that all observed processes follow certain laws and principles, as such any combination of these processes would also follow these same principles and laws. Therefore, assuming, that the brain consists of the same stuff as the rest of the world it must in its entirety (including its development) follow the same laws and principles and would be, if those laws and principle were known, be predictable.
Of course as is always the case in philosophy there are many different variations of Determinism.
My personal opinion on pretty much all philosophy is: "If I cannot prove it and I cannot use it, what's the ****ing point? There are a few interesting concepts though."
Personally I think that Determinism makes more sense than spiritualism or any of the religions at least ^^
What did the people determine?
Please do not use -ists or -isms.
Thank you.