But even before sin god created predators and prey right? There was already animals suffering to feed other animals. That is cruelty that god created even before Adam ate the apple.
I believe this answers your question (from the Summa Theologiae):
Equality of justice has its place in retribution, since equal rewards or punishments are due to equal merit or demerit. But this does not apply to things as at first instituted. For just as an architect, without injustice, places stones of the same kind in different parts of a building, not on account of any antecedent difference in the stones, but with a view to securing that perfection of the entire building, which could not be obtained except by the different positions of the stones; even so, God from the beginning, to secure perfection in the universe, has set therein creatures of various and unequal natures, according to His wisdom, and without injustice, since no diversity of merit is presupposed.
But in the constitution of things there is no inequality of parts through any preceding inequality, either of merits or of the disposition of the matter; but inequality comes from the perfection of the whole. This appears also in works done by art; for the roof of a house differs from the foundation, not because it is made of other material; but in order that the house may be made perfect of different parts, the artificer seeks different material; indeed, he would make such material if he could.
I honestly can never understand bible quotes. To me that just sounded like abunch of gibberish. My brain doesnt process philosophy well at all. I can not tell you what those verses meant lol
That wasn't a Bible reading. It was from the Summa Theologiae, a book by Thomas Aquinas explaining the sum of theological knowledge at the time of writing. I'll go through it line by line.
"Equality of justice has its place in retribution, since equal rewards or punishments are due to equal merit or demerit."
Our modern ideas of equal justice make sense for punishments and rewards, since punishments and rewards are earned, and those who earn them equally deserve them equally.
"But this does not apply to things as at first instituted."
Equal justice was not a thing in the pre-fallen world.
"For just as an architect, without injustice, places stones of the same kind in different parts of a building, not on account of any antecedent difference in the stones, but with a view to securing that perfection of the entire building, which could not be obtained except by the different positions of the stones; even so, God from the beginning, to secure perfection in the universe, has set therein creatures of various and unequal natures, according to His wisdom, and without injustice, since no diversity of merit is presupposed."
Like an architect building a building, God was creating things the way they were to create a perfect universe. A perfect universe, in its perfection, has to have inequality, and things in that time were not unjust because there was no merit for which one can base judgement, as God found that all was good.
"But in the constitution of things there is no inequality of parts through any preceding inequality, either of merits or of the disposition of the matter; but inequality comes from the perfection of the whole. This appears also in works done by art; for the roof of a house differs from the foundation, not because it is made of other material; but in order that the house may be made perfect of different parts, the artificer seeks different material; indeed, he would make such material if he could."
The inequality of the things created was not caused by any inherent traits that existed among them, but due to the fact that are part of a perfect whole. Aquinas compares this to how, in a building, the roof is set apart from the foundation, being unequal not because they are made by different materials, but because they have different purposes. The roof has to take on the rain; the foundation prevents the house from sinking.
So, some creatures were designed and placed on the world to be consumed by others. The purpose of all the creatures is to keep the world perfect, and without them sacrificing their lives, it would be imperfect. You must realize that animals only serve to keep God's creation perfect. They have no spirit and no free will; they do not go to heaven. Harm is not inherently sinful either, for God punishes evildoers with harm. The evil part of harm is inentionally inflicting it, but animals have no intent, and they cannot do evil, since they have no free will to choose evil; they are purely good. Their causing harm to each other is not evil; it merely keeps the creation perfect. Just as the gears in a clock wear out over time, the animals wear out over time and die; the only difference is that God gave the animals souls: life, the ability to feel, and know when they need to be replaced, as, with life, comes the ability to replace oneself, so the animals reproduce to replace themselves, continuing to keep perfect the undying clock that is this universe.
That doesnt change the fact that god if all powerful he didnt have to create animals to suffer. He could have made them without pain receptors or made them eat something else that grows from the ground. That part to me seems cruel. If I was creating a universe I would never think about making something have to suffer to feed something else. I would never think about creating a pit of fire to make someone burn for eternity for not believing in me when I refuse to show him myself.
Im not saying god isnt real but he is very narcissistic if he does.
I would guess that the laws of physics were existent before God created the universe. If nothing ever suffered from anything, how could the world be perfect? If the animals could not feel and could not tell when they needed to be replaced, God's creation would be no different than a man-made clock; it would become imperfect over time until it eventually failed far faster than it is, since the parts keeping the parts keeping it perfect know how and when to replace themselves. If the animals ate non-living things, such as rocks, the animals would eat all the rocks, and the corpses of the animals would go to waste. God knew what he was doing when he made the world as perfect as he could, and, even in a perfect world, there is chance for suffering and chance for evil, for, without those things, the world would be imperfect. God has knowledge neither of us do. He created a perfect creation, and, even if you think you could do better, you couldn't.
Christians, do you believe decent non-Christians will go to Hell forever?
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But even before sin god created predators and prey right? There was already animals suffering to feed other animals. That is cruelty that god created even before Adam ate the apple.
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Clunk42
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I believe this answers your question (from the Summa Theologiae):
Equality of justice has its place in retribution, since equal rewards or punishments are due to equal merit or demerit. But this does not apply to things as at first instituted. For just as an architect, without injustice, places stones of the same kind in different parts of a building, not on account of any antecedent difference in the stones, but with a view to securing that perfection of the entire building, which could not be obtained except by the different positions of the stones; even so, God from the beginning, to secure perfection in the universe, has set therein creatures of various and unequal natures, according to His wisdom, and without injustice, since no diversity of merit is presupposed.
But in the constitution of things there is no inequality of parts through any preceding inequality, either of merits or of the disposition of the matter; but inequality comes from the perfection of the whole. This appears also in works done by art; for the roof of a house differs from the foundation, not because it is made of other material; but in order that the house may be made perfect of different parts, the artificer seeks different material; indeed, he would make such material if he could.
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1WeirdGuy
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I honestly can never understand bible quotes. To me that just sounded like abunch of gibberish. My brain doesnt process philosophy well at all. I can not tell you what those verses meant lol
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Clunk42
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That wasn't a Bible reading. It was from the Summa Theologiae, a book by Thomas Aquinas explaining the sum of theological knowledge at the time of writing. I'll go through it line by line.
"Equality of justice has its place in retribution, since equal rewards or punishments are due to equal merit or demerit."
Our modern ideas of equal justice make sense for punishments and rewards, since punishments and rewards are earned, and those who earn them equally deserve them equally.
"But this does not apply to things as at first instituted."
Equal justice was not a thing in the pre-fallen world.
"For just as an architect, without injustice, places stones of the same kind in different parts of a building, not on account of any antecedent difference in the stones, but with a view to securing that perfection of the entire building, which could not be obtained except by the different positions of the stones; even so, God from the beginning, to secure perfection in the universe, has set therein creatures of various and unequal natures, according to His wisdom, and without injustice, since no diversity of merit is presupposed."
Like an architect building a building, God was creating things the way they were to create a perfect universe. A perfect universe, in its perfection, has to have inequality, and things in that time were not unjust because there was no merit for which one can base judgement, as God found that all was good.
"But in the constitution of things there is no inequality of parts through any preceding inequality, either of merits or of the disposition of the matter; but inequality comes from the perfection of the whole. This appears also in works done by art; for the roof of a house differs from the foundation, not because it is made of other material; but in order that the house may be made perfect of different parts, the artificer seeks different material; indeed, he would make such material if he could."
The inequality of the things created was not caused by any inherent traits that existed among them, but due to the fact that are part of a perfect whole. Aquinas compares this to how, in a building, the roof is set apart from the foundation, being unequal not because they are made by different materials, but because they have different purposes. The roof has to take on the rain; the foundation prevents the house from sinking.
So, some creatures were designed and placed on the world to be consumed by others. The purpose of all the creatures is to keep the world perfect, and without them sacrificing their lives, it would be imperfect. You must realize that animals only serve to keep God's creation perfect. They have no spirit and no free will; they do not go to heaven. Harm is not inherently sinful either, for God punishes evildoers with harm. The evil part of harm is inentionally inflicting it, but animals have no intent, and they cannot do evil, since they have no free will to choose evil; they are purely good. Their causing harm to each other is not evil; it merely keeps the creation perfect. Just as the gears in a clock wear out over time, the animals wear out over time and die; the only difference is that God gave the animals souls: life, the ability to feel, and know when they need to be replaced, as, with life, comes the ability to replace oneself, so the animals reproduce to replace themselves, continuing to keep perfect the undying clock that is this universe.
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1WeirdGuy
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That doesnt change the fact that god if all powerful he didnt have to create animals to suffer. He could have made them without pain receptors or made them eat something else that grows from the ground. That part to me seems cruel. If I was creating a universe I would never think about making something have to suffer to feed something else. I would never think about creating a pit of fire to make someone burn for eternity for not believing in me when I refuse to show him myself.
Im not saying god isnt real but he is very narcissistic if he does.
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Clunk42
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I would guess that the laws of physics were existent before God created the universe. If nothing ever suffered from anything, how could the world be perfect? If the animals could not feel and could not tell when they needed to be replaced, God's creation would be no different than a man-made clock; it would become imperfect over time until it eventually failed far faster than it is, since the parts keeping the parts keeping it perfect know how and when to replace themselves. If the animals ate non-living things, such as rocks, the animals would eat all the rocks, and the corpses of the animals would go to waste. God knew what he was doing when he made the world as perfect as he could, and, even in a perfect world, there is chance for suffering and chance for evil, for, without those things, the world would be imperfect. God has knowledge neither of us do. He created a perfect creation, and, even if you think you could do better, you couldn't.