So, a human being that rejects Jesus, but is very kind to others goes to Hell, but a repentant serial killer goes to Heaven. Does that really seem just to you?
I don't think you understand repentance. You don't judge people for the sins they have done in the past, nor for the good things they have done in the past. What matters is their repentance for their sins from the past. Someone who rejects Jesus cannot repent for their sins, and cannot go to heaven, for they are separated from God. The repentant serial killer in your example is doing true good: repenting for their sins and believing in Jesus. However, the other person is only doing worldly good: being kind to others. Worldly good is part of true good, but it is only part.
You haven't answered my question: does it really seem just to you that a human being that rejects Jesus, but is very kind to others, goes to Hell, but a repentant serial killer goes to Heaven? Answer yes or no please.
Also, I would like to address that what you HAVE written. Here goes:
"You don't judge people for the sins they have done in the past, nor for the good things they have done in the past. What matters is their repentance for their sins from the past."
Why?
"Someone who rejects Jesus cannot repent for their sins, and cannot go to heaven, for they are separated from God."
How so? What's so great about Jesus? According to the Bible, he also said plenty of objectionable things. One example of many is Matthew 10:34-37. If I were to accept Jesus, it would be exclusively based on fear of Hell. Do you really think fear is a good reason for worship? There are also many other religions that promise eternal Hell to the disbeliever.
It is perfectly fair, since whether or not you go to Hell is a personal choice. The person who rejects Jesus chose to reject Jesus and chose to end up in complete separation from Jesus. The murderer who repents from his sin chooses to join Jesus in total communion with God.
You do not judge for the good someone has done, since, no matter how much good you have done, you will always do evil, since we live in a fallen world. Since the kind person is unrepentant of his sins, he does not what is truly good or evil and does not live a life of good, but a life of evil. Though the murderer may have once been evil in the past, he realizes what is truly good and truly evil, so he feels remorse for his evil actions in the past. How would it be fair for the man with no remorse for his evil deeds to go to heaven, while the man who is repentant for his evil deeds does not? They have both done evil, though the second did more evil than the first, but the first is not repentant. The first does not see the evils that he has committed. The second sees these things and is remorseful about them: he repents.
You don't understand the nature of repentance. To repent is to feel remorse for the evils you have done in the past. Those who do not believe in Jesus will not see all the evils that they have committed, so they cannot repent. They do not have the truth nor the true morality that comes with it. They instead have a false morality, which either does not contain the whole truth, contains a corruption of the truth, or contains something entirely contradictory to the truth. If they have false moral truths, they will not be capable of repenting, because they will not be capable of finding all of their sins.
That Bible reading is one of the worst possible Bible readings for you to provide for the argument you are making here. That is not suggesting whatever you think it does. That reading is simply saying that Jesus's works were not going to create world peace; rather, they caused strife for all, not just non-Christians and not just Christians. That reading has nothing to do with Hell or judgement.
Fear is not a good reason for believing, and anyone who's reason for belief is "fear of the unknown" or "comforting" either does not truly believe, or has not correctly communicated their real reason for belief. People, who truly believe, believe because they know it to be the truth, not for a selfish reason such as "fear".
"It is perfectly fair, since whether or not you go to Hell is a personal choice."
False. Going to Heaven or Hell supposedly depends on truly believing or not. While a person can try to convince him/herself, a person CANNOT choose to believe something. When he/she is presented with certain claims, they subsequently simply either believe them or not. They don't decide this themselves. It is NOT a personal choice.
But okay, let's say that I accept your premise. I would then of course choose NOT to go to Hell. However, in your view that would automatically mean I would have to believe certain things about God, Jesus, etc. that I simply CANNOT believe. It is EXTREMELY unreasonable to expect I can.
"The person who rejects Jesus chose to reject Jesus and chose to end up in complete separation from Jesus."
I certainly reject Jesus, but that isn't really my choice. I've read his words in the Bible quite a number of times, and I really can't help but think that - as well as some decent stuff - he said some quite immoral things. That's why I quoted Matthew 10:34-37. Saying that you've come to cause conflict and that people should love you more than their own family, seems pretty messed up to me. I CANNOT help feeling this way. Also, I would really like you to explain to me exactly what's so great about Jesus. Why was he better than, say, Buddha?
"You do not judge for the good someone has done, since, no matter how much good you have done, you will always do evil"
Yes, a person will indeed inevitably do evil, but if the good (vastly) outweighs the evil, I really can't see how someone deserves to be tortured forever. Actually, I can't see how ANYONE deserves that. How does a finite "crime" (not accepting Jesus during your lifetime) warrant an INfinite punishment? It doesn't.
"Since the kind person is unrepentant of his sins, he does not what is truly good or evil and does not live a life of good, but a life of evil."
Who said that the kind person was unrepentant of his sins? He's genuinely sorry for his wrongdoings, but just doesn't accept Jesus. You don't have to believe in Jesus to be able to be repentant, you know. Also, faith in Jesus is NOT required to realize what is truly good or evil. Why do you think it is?
"How would it be fair for the man with no remorse for his evil deeds to go to heaven, while the man who is repentant for his evil deeds does not?"
Again, you don't have to believe in Jesus to be able to be repentant for your wrongdoings.
"To repent is to feel remorse for the evils you have done in the past."
True. But while you seem to think that you definitely need Jesus to be able to be repentant, I absolutely don't. That seems to be the very core of our disagreement.
"Those who do not believe in Jesus will not see all the evils that they have committed, so they cannot repent."
Utter nonsense. How do you know what those who don't believe in Jesus will or won't see? And why do you think that a person has to believe in Jesus to be able to see all the evils that they have committed?
"They do not have the truth nor the true morality that comes with it."
How do you know you have the truth and the true morality? That's quite judgmental and arrogant. You seem utterly brainwashed to me to be honest.
"That reading has nothing to do with Hell or judgement."
I know. I solely provided it to show that Jesus also said some very objectionable things according to the Bible. Like I said before, I would really like you to explain to me exactly what's so great about Jesus. Why was he better than, say, Buddha?
"Fear is not a good reason for believing"
Agreed. However, if I were to believe, it would be based purely on fear, as I simply don't believe in Jesus. As I pointed out before, I didn't choose that.
"People, who truly believe, believe because they know it to be the truth, not for a selfish reason such as "fear"."
People who truly believe, don't believe because they know, as believing and knowing are two completely different things. They simply believe because they believe. As for fear, I would hardly describe not wanting to burn for all eternity as selfish.
Finally, I have known several good, loving human beings who didn't believe in Jesus. I will NEVER believe that they are burning in Hell for all eternity. That is WAY beyond disgusting. Anyway, I hope you're trolling and don't really believe what you're saying. Otherwise, you're a truly horrible person.
Christians, do you believe decent non-Christians will go to Hell forever?
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Yes.
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Clunk42
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If they believe and are repentant, then the likely answer is yes.
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So, a human being that rejects Jesus, but is very kind to others goes to Hell, but a repentant serial killer goes to Heaven. Does that really seem just to you?
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Clunk42
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I don't think you understand repentance. You don't judge people for the sins they have done in the past, nor for the good things they have done in the past. What matters is their repentance for their sins from the past. Someone who rejects Jesus cannot repent for their sins, and cannot go to heaven, for they are separated from God. The repentant serial killer in your example is doing true good: repenting for their sins and believing in Jesus. However, the other person is only doing worldly good: being kind to others. Worldly good is part of true good, but it is only part.
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Anonymous Post Author
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You haven't answered my question: does it really seem just to you that a human being that rejects Jesus, but is very kind to others, goes to Hell, but a repentant serial killer goes to Heaven? Answer yes or no please.
Also, I would like to address that what you HAVE written. Here goes:
"You don't judge people for the sins they have done in the past, nor for the good things they have done in the past. What matters is their repentance for their sins from the past."
Why?
"Someone who rejects Jesus cannot repent for their sins, and cannot go to heaven, for they are separated from God."
How so? What's so great about Jesus? According to the Bible, he also said plenty of objectionable things. One example of many is Matthew 10:34-37. If I were to accept Jesus, it would be exclusively based on fear of Hell. Do you really think fear is a good reason for worship? There are also many other religions that promise eternal Hell to the disbeliever.
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Clunk42
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It is perfectly fair, since whether or not you go to Hell is a personal choice. The person who rejects Jesus chose to reject Jesus and chose to end up in complete separation from Jesus. The murderer who repents from his sin chooses to join Jesus in total communion with God.
You do not judge for the good someone has done, since, no matter how much good you have done, you will always do evil, since we live in a fallen world. Since the kind person is unrepentant of his sins, he does not what is truly good or evil and does not live a life of good, but a life of evil. Though the murderer may have once been evil in the past, he realizes what is truly good and truly evil, so he feels remorse for his evil actions in the past. How would it be fair for the man with no remorse for his evil deeds to go to heaven, while the man who is repentant for his evil deeds does not? They have both done evil, though the second did more evil than the first, but the first is not repentant. The first does not see the evils that he has committed. The second sees these things and is remorseful about them: he repents.
You don't understand the nature of repentance. To repent is to feel remorse for the evils you have done in the past. Those who do not believe in Jesus will not see all the evils that they have committed, so they cannot repent. They do not have the truth nor the true morality that comes with it. They instead have a false morality, which either does not contain the whole truth, contains a corruption of the truth, or contains something entirely contradictory to the truth. If they have false moral truths, they will not be capable of repenting, because they will not be capable of finding all of their sins.
That Bible reading is one of the worst possible Bible readings for you to provide for the argument you are making here. That is not suggesting whatever you think it does. That reading is simply saying that Jesus's works were not going to create world peace; rather, they caused strife for all, not just non-Christians and not just Christians. That reading has nothing to do with Hell or judgement.
Fear is not a good reason for believing, and anyone who's reason for belief is "fear of the unknown" or "comforting" either does not truly believe, or has not correctly communicated their real reason for belief. People, who truly believe, believe because they know it to be the truth, not for a selfish reason such as "fear".
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I believe in Jesus, but I also believe in wanking.
"It is perfectly fair, since whether or not you go to Hell is a personal choice."
False. Going to Heaven or Hell supposedly depends on truly believing or not. While a person can try to convince him/herself, a person CANNOT choose to believe something. When he/she is presented with certain claims, they subsequently simply either believe them or not. They don't decide this themselves. It is NOT a personal choice.
But okay, let's say that I accept your premise. I would then of course choose NOT to go to Hell. However, in your view that would automatically mean I would have to believe certain things about God, Jesus, etc. that I simply CANNOT believe. It is EXTREMELY unreasonable to expect I can.
"The person who rejects Jesus chose to reject Jesus and chose to end up in complete separation from Jesus."
I certainly reject Jesus, but that isn't really my choice. I've read his words in the Bible quite a number of times, and I really can't help but think that - as well as some decent stuff - he said some quite immoral things. That's why I quoted Matthew 10:34-37. Saying that you've come to cause conflict and that people should love you more than their own family, seems pretty messed up to me. I CANNOT help feeling this way. Also, I would really like you to explain to me exactly what's so great about Jesus. Why was he better than, say, Buddha?
"You do not judge for the good someone has done, since, no matter how much good you have done, you will always do evil"
Yes, a person will indeed inevitably do evil, but if the good (vastly) outweighs the evil, I really can't see how someone deserves to be tortured forever. Actually, I can't see how ANYONE deserves that. How does a finite "crime" (not accepting Jesus during your lifetime) warrant an INfinite punishment? It doesn't.
"Since the kind person is unrepentant of his sins, he does not what is truly good or evil and does not live a life of good, but a life of evil."
Who said that the kind person was unrepentant of his sins? He's genuinely sorry for his wrongdoings, but just doesn't accept Jesus. You don't have to believe in Jesus to be able to be repentant, you know. Also, faith in Jesus is NOT required to realize what is truly good or evil. Why do you think it is?
"How would it be fair for the man with no remorse for his evil deeds to go to heaven, while the man who is repentant for his evil deeds does not?"
Again, you don't have to believe in Jesus to be able to be repentant for your wrongdoings.
"To repent is to feel remorse for the evils you have done in the past."
True. But while you seem to think that you definitely need Jesus to be able to be repentant, I absolutely don't. That seems to be the very core of our disagreement.
"Those who do not believe in Jesus will not see all the evils that they have committed, so they cannot repent."
Utter nonsense. How do you know what those who don't believe in Jesus will or won't see? And why do you think that a person has to believe in Jesus to be able to see all the evils that they have committed?
"They do not have the truth nor the true morality that comes with it."
How do you know you have the truth and the true morality? That's quite judgmental and arrogant. You seem utterly brainwashed to me to be honest.
"That reading has nothing to do with Hell or judgement."
I know. I solely provided it to show that Jesus also said some very objectionable things according to the Bible. Like I said before, I would really like you to explain to me exactly what's so great about Jesus. Why was he better than, say, Buddha?
"Fear is not a good reason for believing"
Agreed. However, if I were to believe, it would be based purely on fear, as I simply don't believe in Jesus. As I pointed out before, I didn't choose that.
"People, who truly believe, believe because they know it to be the truth, not for a selfish reason such as "fear"."
People who truly believe, don't believe because they know, as believing and knowing are two completely different things. They simply believe because they believe. As for fear, I would hardly describe not wanting to burn for all eternity as selfish.
Finally, I have known several good, loving human beings who didn't believe in Jesus. I will NEVER believe that they are burning in Hell for all eternity. That is WAY beyond disgusting. Anyway, I hope you're trolling and don't really believe what you're saying. Otherwise, you're a truly horrible person.