If you reject Jesus, then yes, since only those who believe in Jesus can go to heaven. For those who simply don't know about Jesus, it as about whether or not they would be willing to believe in Jesus.
Ive come to the conclusion that if the god of abraham does exist and jesus was his son that he is an asshole. But that alone doesnt mean he doesn't exist. The god the church preaches about being all loving and all forgiving is just a feel good narrative. The bible shows god is very jealous and wants submission and to be feared.
With all the suffering in the world if there is a god hes a cruel god. No way around it.
I just feel like the creator of earth and humanity, wouldn’t be a bigot. We’re forced to praise him or damned to hell? Or people who practice other peaceful religions aren’t worthy of paradise?
I’m pretty sure Chunk makes these posts so he can argue with himself.
If you really think about it that doesnt really make sense. Thats the church narrative you've heard all your life making you attribute god with righteousness. For there to be a creator it doesnt mean you have to be nice.
That throws me off about atheists they say "there cant be a creator because of suffering". But there definitely can be.
Either way it doesnt mean theres not something out there that made all this crap. It could just be that the creator doesnt really get involved in earthly matters. I believe theres something intelligent out there. Im not sold on heaven or hell. But who knows. Ill ask for forgiveness before death anyway just incase.
I haven't posted on here in a long time. My last post was, "Is it normal i feel suicide awareness week is patronizing to those wanting suicide?"
I don't think you understand what Hell is. Hell is complete detachment from God. In the end, there will only be total communion with God and complete detachment from God. If you choose to live in complete detachment from God, you choose to live in Hell. If you reject Jesus, you wouldn't want to live in total communion with God, and only those who want to will be capable of joining God in the end.
No humans are "worthy of paradise", since God himself deemed humans unworthy of the Paradise, commonly known as the Garden of Eden. Those who worship other religions may or may not want to be in total communion with God, but those who reject Christianity in favor of false religions clearly do not want to live in total communion with God.
You are correct. The people who preach all being saved and other assorted sugar-coating heresies are just that: heretics. They believe in a false narrative of a god who is more forgiving than the true God, and a god who is impossibly kind.
However, you do seem to believe in a heresy yourself, about creation. The world without the possibility of evil would be an imperfect one. God himself said that Adam and Eve would suffer upon leaving Paradise, and they did, since they were separate from God. You seem to be suggesting, however, that the heretical idea that God created evil is true.
According to the Summa Theologiae:
Augustine says (QQ. 83, qu. 21), that, "God is not the author of evil because He is not the cause of tending to not-being."
[e] I answer that, As appears from what was said [434] (A [1]), the evil which consists in the defect of action is always caused by the defect of the agent. But in God there is no defect, but the highest perfection, as was shown above ([435] Q [4], A [1]). Hence, the evil which consists in defect of action, or which is caused by defect of the agent, is not reduced to God as to its cause.
[f] But the evil which consists in the corruption of some things is reduced to God as the cause. And this appears as regards both natural things and voluntary things. For it was said [436] (A [1]) that some agent inasmuch as it produces by its power a form to which follows corruption and defect, causes by its power that corruption and defect. But it is manifest that the form which God chiefly intends in things created is the good of the order of the universe. Now, the order of the universe requires, as was said above ([437] Q [22], A [2], ad 2; [438] Q [48], A [2]), that there should be some things that can, and do sometimes, fail. And thus God, by causing in things the good of the order of the universe, consequently and as it were by accident, causes the corruptions of things, according to 1 2:6: "The Lord killeth and maketh alive." But when we read that "God hath not made death" (Wis. 1:13), the sense is that God does not will death for its own sake. Nevertheless the order of justice belongs to the order of the universe; and this requires that penalty should be dealt out to sinners. And so God is the author of the evil which is penalty, but not of the evil which is fault,
But even before sin god created predators and prey right? There was already animals suffering to feed other animals. That is cruelty that god created even before Adam ate the apple.
I believe this answers your question (from the Summa Theologiae):
Equality of justice has its place in retribution, since equal rewards or punishments are due to equal merit or demerit. But this does not apply to things as at first instituted. For just as an architect, without injustice, places stones of the same kind in different parts of a building, not on account of any antecedent difference in the stones, but with a view to securing that perfection of the entire building, which could not be obtained except by the different positions of the stones; even so, God from the beginning, to secure perfection in the universe, has set therein creatures of various and unequal natures, according to His wisdom, and without injustice, since no diversity of merit is presupposed.
But in the constitution of things there is no inequality of parts through any preceding inequality, either of merits or of the disposition of the matter; but inequality comes from the perfection of the whole. This appears also in works done by art; for the roof of a house differs from the foundation, not because it is made of other material; but in order that the house may be made perfect of different parts, the artificer seeks different material; indeed, he would make such material if he could.
I honestly can never understand bible quotes. To me that just sounded like abunch of gibberish. My brain doesnt process philosophy well at all. I can not tell you what those verses meant lol
If you reject Jesus, you don't go to heaven. The Bible clearly states that. Most people don't go to heaven, for "narrovv is the gate, and ſtrait is the vvay that leadeth to heaven, and fevv there are that find it!" That verse leads us to believe that many Christians aren't even going to heaven. The Bible says multiple times in it that those who believe and are baptized go to heaven. We don't know about whether or not those who don't believe go to heaven, but we do know that those who reject Jesus have actively made the choice to not go to heaven.
"If you reject Jesus, you don't go to heaven. The Bible clearly states that."
And who says that the Bible is right about that? Yeah, the Bible. Nice circular "logic" you've got there.
"ſtrait is the vvay that leadeth to heaven, and fevv there are that find it!"
Why would God have made it like that, especially if he wants everyone to go to Heaven, like 1 Timothy 2:4 says?
"We don't know about whether or not those who don't believe go to heaven, but we do know that those who reject Jesus have actively made the choice to not go to heaven."
Accepting Jesus is more important than believing in Christianity? That's an odd thing for a Christian to say, certainly one as fucked up as you. Also, how the fuck is rejecting Jesus "choosintg" Hell? How retarded are you?
Finally, have you sold all your possessions, to give to the poor, like suggested in Matthew 19:21? I don't fucking think so. I could ask you more questions like that BTW...
Well, assuming there is a Heaven, then the Bible is certainly correct about that.
God does want all to go to Heaven, but few choose to be good enough to be worthy of going to Heaven.
Believing in Christianity requires you to accept Jesus, so I don't know what your point is here. To not accept Jesus but believe in God is Judaism, which will not lead you to Heaven.
By rejecting Jesus, you are claiming him to be false and blaspheming the name of the Lord. How is one who actively insults Jesus to get into Heaven through Jesus? One doesn't. One chooses not to go to Heaven, through one's blasphemy. When rejecting Jesus, one rejects the validity of he who can get people into Heaven, and when judgement comes, Jesus will see that they have rejected and insulted him all their life, and he will see that they are not fit for Heaven.
As life is pretty random, it LOOKS like there is absolutely no-one in charge.
The riddle of Epicurus is a good one, I think.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
So, a human being that rejects Jesus, but is very kind to others goes to Hell, but a repentant serial killer goes to Heaven. Does that really seem just to you?
I don't think you understand repentance. You don't judge people for the sins they have done in the past, nor for the good things they have done in the past. What matters is their repentance for their sins from the past. Someone who rejects Jesus cannot repent for their sins, and cannot go to heaven, for they are separated from God. The repentant serial killer in your example is doing true good: repenting for their sins and believing in Jesus. However, the other person is only doing worldly good: being kind to others. Worldly good is part of true good, but it is only part.
Christians, do you believe decent non-Christians will go to Hell forever?
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If you reject Jesus, then yes, since only those who believe in Jesus can go to heaven. For those who simply don't know about Jesus, it as about whether or not they would be willing to believe in Jesus.
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litelander8
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How just.
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Ive come to the conclusion that if the god of abraham does exist and jesus was his son that he is an asshole. But that alone doesnt mean he doesn't exist. The god the church preaches about being all loving and all forgiving is just a feel good narrative. The bible shows god is very jealous and wants submission and to be feared.
With all the suffering in the world if there is a god hes a cruel god. No way around it.
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I just feel like the creator of earth and humanity, wouldn’t be a bigot. We’re forced to praise him or damned to hell? Or people who practice other peaceful religions aren’t worthy of paradise?
I’m pretty sure Chunk makes these posts so he can argue with himself.
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If you really think about it that doesnt really make sense. Thats the church narrative you've heard all your life making you attribute god with righteousness. For there to be a creator it doesnt mean you have to be nice.
That throws me off about atheists they say "there cant be a creator because of suffering". But there definitely can be.
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No, they say: "There can't be a LOVING creator because of suffering."
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Either way it doesnt mean theres not something out there that made all this crap. It could just be that the creator doesnt really get involved in earthly matters. I believe theres something intelligent out there. Im not sold on heaven or hell. But who knows. Ill ask for forgiveness before death anyway just incase.
I haven't posted on here in a long time. My last post was, "Is it normal i feel suicide awareness week is patronizing to those wanting suicide?"
I don't think you understand what Hell is. Hell is complete detachment from God. In the end, there will only be total communion with God and complete detachment from God. If you choose to live in complete detachment from God, you choose to live in Hell. If you reject Jesus, you wouldn't want to live in total communion with God, and only those who want to will be capable of joining God in the end.
No humans are "worthy of paradise", since God himself deemed humans unworthy of the Paradise, commonly known as the Garden of Eden. Those who worship other religions may or may not want to be in total communion with God, but those who reject Christianity in favor of false religions clearly do not want to live in total communion with God.
You are correct. The people who preach all being saved and other assorted sugar-coating heresies are just that: heretics. They believe in a false narrative of a god who is more forgiving than the true God, and a god who is impossibly kind.
However, you do seem to believe in a heresy yourself, about creation. The world without the possibility of evil would be an imperfect one. God himself said that Adam and Eve would suffer upon leaving Paradise, and they did, since they were separate from God. You seem to be suggesting, however, that the heretical idea that God created evil is true.
According to the Summa Theologiae:
Augustine says (QQ. 83, qu. 21), that, "God is not the author of evil because He is not the cause of tending to not-being."
[e] I answer that, As appears from what was said [434] (A [1]), the evil which consists in the defect of action is always caused by the defect of the agent. But in God there is no defect, but the highest perfection, as was shown above ([435] Q [4], A [1]). Hence, the evil which consists in defect of action, or which is caused by defect of the agent, is not reduced to God as to its cause.
[f] But the evil which consists in the corruption of some things is reduced to God as the cause. And this appears as regards both natural things and voluntary things. For it was said [436] (A [1]) that some agent inasmuch as it produces by its power a form to which follows corruption and defect, causes by its power that corruption and defect. But it is manifest that the form which God chiefly intends in things created is the good of the order of the universe. Now, the order of the universe requires, as was said above ([437] Q [22], A [2], ad 2; [438] Q [48], A [2]), that there should be some things that can, and do sometimes, fail. And thus God, by causing in things the good of the order of the universe, consequently and as it were by accident, causes the corruptions of things, according to 1 2:6: "The Lord killeth and maketh alive." But when we read that "God hath not made death" (Wis. 1:13), the sense is that God does not will death for its own sake. Nevertheless the order of justice belongs to the order of the universe; and this requires that penalty should be dealt out to sinners. And so God is the author of the evil which is penalty, but not of the evil which is fault,
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But even before sin god created predators and prey right? There was already animals suffering to feed other animals. That is cruelty that god created even before Adam ate the apple.
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I believe this answers your question (from the Summa Theologiae):
Equality of justice has its place in retribution, since equal rewards or punishments are due to equal merit or demerit. But this does not apply to things as at first instituted. For just as an architect, without injustice, places stones of the same kind in different parts of a building, not on account of any antecedent difference in the stones, but with a view to securing that perfection of the entire building, which could not be obtained except by the different positions of the stones; even so, God from the beginning, to secure perfection in the universe, has set therein creatures of various and unequal natures, according to His wisdom, and without injustice, since no diversity of merit is presupposed.
But in the constitution of things there is no inequality of parts through any preceding inequality, either of merits or of the disposition of the matter; but inequality comes from the perfection of the whole. This appears also in works done by art; for the roof of a house differs from the foundation, not because it is made of other material; but in order that the house may be made perfect of different parts, the artificer seeks different material; indeed, he would make such material if he could.
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1WeirdGuy
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I honestly can never understand bible quotes. To me that just sounded like abunch of gibberish. My brain doesnt process philosophy well at all. I can not tell you what those verses meant lol
If you reject Jesus, you don't go to heaven. The Bible clearly states that. Most people don't go to heaven, for "narrovv is the gate, and ſtrait is the vvay that leadeth to heaven, and fevv there are that find it!" That verse leads us to believe that many Christians aren't even going to heaven. The Bible says multiple times in it that those who believe and are baptized go to heaven. We don't know about whether or not those who don't believe go to heaven, but we do know that those who reject Jesus have actively made the choice to not go to heaven.
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"If you reject Jesus, you don't go to heaven. The Bible clearly states that."
And who says that the Bible is right about that? Yeah, the Bible. Nice circular "logic" you've got there.
"ſtrait is the vvay that leadeth to heaven, and fevv there are that find it!"
Why would God have made it like that, especially if he wants everyone to go to Heaven, like 1 Timothy 2:4 says?
"We don't know about whether or not those who don't believe go to heaven, but we do know that those who reject Jesus have actively made the choice to not go to heaven."
Accepting Jesus is more important than believing in Christianity? That's an odd thing for a Christian to say, certainly one as fucked up as you. Also, how the fuck is rejecting Jesus "choosintg" Hell? How retarded are you?
Finally, have you sold all your possessions, to give to the poor, like suggested in Matthew 19:21? I don't fucking think so. I could ask you more questions like that BTW...
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Clunk42
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Well, assuming there is a Heaven, then the Bible is certainly correct about that.
God does want all to go to Heaven, but few choose to be good enough to be worthy of going to Heaven.
Believing in Christianity requires you to accept Jesus, so I don't know what your point is here. To not accept Jesus but believe in God is Judaism, which will not lead you to Heaven.
By rejecting Jesus, you are claiming him to be false and blaspheming the name of the Lord. How is one who actively insults Jesus to get into Heaven through Jesus? One doesn't. One chooses not to go to Heaven, through one's blasphemy. When rejecting Jesus, one rejects the validity of he who can get people into Heaven, and when judgement comes, Jesus will see that they have rejected and insulted him all their life, and he will see that they are not fit for Heaven.
I don't have much to sell to begin with.
What makes you so sure?
Do you believe that a sadistic serial killer who converts to Christianity shortly before death will go to Heaven?
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Clunk42
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To be fair, looks like it's a sadistic serial killer in charge of the whole thing so who knows?
That's my opinion anyway.
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As life is pretty random, it LOOKS like there is absolutely no-one in charge.
The riddle of Epicurus is a good one, I think.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Are they repentant?
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Yes.
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If they believe and are repentant, then the likely answer is yes.
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So, a human being that rejects Jesus, but is very kind to others goes to Hell, but a repentant serial killer goes to Heaven. Does that really seem just to you?
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Clunk42
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I don't think you understand repentance. You don't judge people for the sins they have done in the past, nor for the good things they have done in the past. What matters is their repentance for their sins from the past. Someone who rejects Jesus cannot repent for their sins, and cannot go to heaven, for they are separated from God. The repentant serial killer in your example is doing true good: repenting for their sins and believing in Jesus. However, the other person is only doing worldly good: being kind to others. Worldly good is part of true good, but it is only part.