Of course men can be manipulative, I see it all the time. I don't think the male "way of hating" is any better. It's more simplistic, and I fail to see how a fight is a fair way of deciding a dispute. The strongest person wins 90% of the time, but stronger doesn't equal right. If the super skinny guy was in the right, and then got the shit kicked out of him by the pro boxer, I don't see how that is fair.
I think that not fighting is a much better way if solving anything. I still think the "female way" is childish, but there's no reason why it's "worse".
At the end of the day, there's no reason why a woman can't slap some bitch who's annoying her, which is exactly a fight, which seems to be what you'd like. Nobody is stopping that happening.
Really, I just believe fighting is too simplistic. The person in the right has no higher chance of winning. It's why I think fighting is just as childish as manipulative behaviour, it doesn't solve the problem fairly.
Also, you could argue that it's a woman's natural instinct to behave in a "bitchy and manipulative" way as opposed to a straight fight. Which I know isn't your main point, but I thought I'd throw it in :)
On the issue of just letting your opinions clear, I don't think men do that. Men bottle anything up if they think it will make people perceive them as "not manly". For some reason, it is considered manly to let out emotions like anger and hate, but not manly to let out feelings of pain and sadness. It's why being a gut isn't so great, only being able to let out some emotions is rubbish.
'Kay, maybe you're right - and maybe I'm not really sticking to the point - about the 'ways of hating'. What I meant by it all was that usually men will let it clear who they like and who they don't while women will a lot of time pretend they like someone they don't. I believe men only do that when there's a personal objetive behind it.
But we're not talking sadness and pain, we're talking anger and hate ;) And either way, feeling those things IS weak.
That's true, and the way a lot of women behave in that situation is foolish and I've never understood it. Maybe I feel less strongly compared to you because as a guy I've been on the other end of the female manipulation stick less frequently, and on the other end of the male stick (wow "male stick" sounded dirty ;) ) fairly often.
As a separate point but one I very, very strongly believe: I think anger and hate make you weak, not pain and sadness. But I think that's the crux of why we think differently ;) And we're talking not about JUST anger and hate, but men and women in general which encompasses it all (albeit with anger and hate as an example).
Bitch, please, I'm too socially irrelevant to have people wasting their time with schemes to break me.
Anyway, anger and hate aren't necessarily caused by other people and sadness and pain are. I think not being affected by other people is what makes someone strong. I mean, if you receive a compliment and wanna feel happy because of that it's fine, but you should be able to choose what affects you and what doesn't.
I know we're talking about genders in general, but my argument about ways of hating was only about hate and anger.
Being attacked by schemes is only half what I was talking about. Being attacked by fists is the other half :P
If you become angry or hateful *without* cause then I think that makes you even weaker because it makes you irrational. If you *choose* to feel angry at nothing then you are weaker still because you're even more irrational. Feeling hurt is not a wrong feeling, and to me saying it is weak is only one step away from not tolerating it. But that's beside the point of the original post :P
By talking about feelings other than anger I was simply branching out into talking about different battles of the same war, which is a crude but helpful analogy :)
I don't mind discussing it just because it's off-topic, just so you know. You could beomce angry or hateful because your microwave broke or because someone stole your car or because the weather's bad, whatever, but you probably won't be sad because of that. You'll be sad because someone died or you had a break-up etc. See the difference? I don't tolerate it in myself and when it comes to other people I think they've got to have a reason I agree deserves them feeling like that (and such a reason might be hard to find.)
It's cool, but I don't really get it...Em, explain again how different ways of dealing with pain and sadness makes men inferior/genders equal, please?
I'd be pretty sad as well as angry if my expensive stuff was stolen, to be honest. But then again, I'm not very easily angered :P
I think it depends on what qualifies as a reason for feeling sad because there's a lot of them and some of them cannot be found, but that doesn't make the sadness any less viable or real or painful or unjustifiable.
I see the difference, but I don't think the difference is especially important. Being angry at something like the weather that you can't change is in my mind just as silly as being sad about it.
I think the fact that it is socially unacceptable for men to show their pain and sadness because it isn't "manly" is one thing that puts men in a worse position than women, who don't have social pressure to be "manly" at all and are looked down on less for expressing "non-manly" feelings like pain. That was my point when I brought that up.
As another side-point, not tolerating other people's feelings of sadness (whatever the cause) when those feelings don't strongly impact you is pointless.
I've got to go and get some sleep now (it's 2:30am over here), but I'll be back in a couple of days :)
Are men better than women or is it the other way 'round?
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Firstly, I'm a guy :)
Of course men can be manipulative, I see it all the time. I don't think the male "way of hating" is any better. It's more simplistic, and I fail to see how a fight is a fair way of deciding a dispute. The strongest person wins 90% of the time, but stronger doesn't equal right. If the super skinny guy was in the right, and then got the shit kicked out of him by the pro boxer, I don't see how that is fair.
I think that not fighting is a much better way if solving anything. I still think the "female way" is childish, but there's no reason why it's "worse".
At the end of the day, there's no reason why a woman can't slap some bitch who's annoying her, which is exactly a fight, which seems to be what you'd like. Nobody is stopping that happening.
Really, I just believe fighting is too simplistic. The person in the right has no higher chance of winning. It's why I think fighting is just as childish as manipulative behaviour, it doesn't solve the problem fairly.
Also, you could argue that it's a woman's natural instinct to behave in a "bitchy and manipulative" way as opposed to a straight fight. Which I know isn't your main point, but I thought I'd throw it in :)
On the issue of just letting your opinions clear, I don't think men do that. Men bottle anything up if they think it will make people perceive them as "not manly". For some reason, it is considered manly to let out emotions like anger and hate, but not manly to let out feelings of pain and sadness. It's why being a gut isn't so great, only being able to let out some emotions is rubbish.
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'Kay, maybe you're right - and maybe I'm not really sticking to the point - about the 'ways of hating'. What I meant by it all was that usually men will let it clear who they like and who they don't while women will a lot of time pretend they like someone they don't. I believe men only do that when there's a personal objetive behind it.
But we're not talking sadness and pain, we're talking anger and hate ;) And either way, feeling those things IS weak.
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That's true, and the way a lot of women behave in that situation is foolish and I've never understood it. Maybe I feel less strongly compared to you because as a guy I've been on the other end of the female manipulation stick less frequently, and on the other end of the male stick (wow "male stick" sounded dirty ;) ) fairly often.
As a separate point but one I very, very strongly believe: I think anger and hate make you weak, not pain and sadness. But I think that's the crux of why we think differently ;) And we're talking not about JUST anger and hate, but men and women in general which encompasses it all (albeit with anger and hate as an example).
This is a good discussion, I think :)
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Bitch, please, I'm too socially irrelevant to have people wasting their time with schemes to break me.
Anyway, anger and hate aren't necessarily caused by other people and sadness and pain are. I think not being affected by other people is what makes someone strong. I mean, if you receive a compliment and wanna feel happy because of that it's fine, but you should be able to choose what affects you and what doesn't.
I know we're talking about genders in general, but my argument about ways of hating was only about hate and anger.
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Being attacked by schemes is only half what I was talking about. Being attacked by fists is the other half :P
If you become angry or hateful *without* cause then I think that makes you even weaker because it makes you irrational. If you *choose* to feel angry at nothing then you are weaker still because you're even more irrational. Feeling hurt is not a wrong feeling, and to me saying it is weak is only one step away from not tolerating it. But that's beside the point of the original post :P
By talking about feelings other than anger I was simply branching out into talking about different battles of the same war, which is a crude but helpful analogy :)
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I don't mind discussing it just because it's off-topic, just so you know. You could beomce angry or hateful because your microwave broke or because someone stole your car or because the weather's bad, whatever, but you probably won't be sad because of that. You'll be sad because someone died or you had a break-up etc. See the difference? I don't tolerate it in myself and when it comes to other people I think they've got to have a reason I agree deserves them feeling like that (and such a reason might be hard to find.)
It's cool, but I don't really get it...Em, explain again how different ways of dealing with pain and sadness makes men inferior/genders equal, please?
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I'd be pretty sad as well as angry if my expensive stuff was stolen, to be honest. But then again, I'm not very easily angered :P
I think it depends on what qualifies as a reason for feeling sad because there's a lot of them and some of them cannot be found, but that doesn't make the sadness any less viable or real or painful or unjustifiable.
I see the difference, but I don't think the difference is especially important. Being angry at something like the weather that you can't change is in my mind just as silly as being sad about it.
I think the fact that it is socially unacceptable for men to show their pain and sadness because it isn't "manly" is one thing that puts men in a worse position than women, who don't have social pressure to be "manly" at all and are looked down on less for expressing "non-manly" feelings like pain. That was my point when I brought that up.
As another side-point, not tolerating other people's feelings of sadness (whatever the cause) when those feelings don't strongly impact you is pointless.
I've got to go and get some sleep now (it's 2:30am over here), but I'll be back in a couple of days :)